Porter: 0:05

Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for personal values when dealing with each other and even within ourselves. Where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries and finding belonging. My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are your people. This is why values still hold value. This is Transacting Value.

Ian Hall: 0:33

Science often isn't about finding the answer. Sometimes, finding the answer can be relatively simple. What's much more difficult is asking the right question.

Porter: 0:45

Alrighty folks, Welcome back to Transacting Value, where we're encouraging dialogue from different perspectives to unite over shared values. Our theme for season four is intrinsic values what your character is doing when you look yourself in the mirror. So if you're new to the podcast, welcome, and if you're a continuing listener, welcome back. Today we're talking our December core values of faith, hope and joy With the well, frankly, he's a lot of things. He's an astrophysicist, he's the founder of the science brand the Average Scientist, and he's a co-host of the Average Scientist podcast, Ian Hall. I'm pretty excited. You guys should be too. So, without further ado, folks on Porter, I'm your host and this is Transacting Value. Ian, how are you? How's your day?

Ian Hall: 1:32

I am very good. Thank you. Yeah, I've had a great day. It's been changeable weather, as always here in the UK, but yeah, it's been a great day. It's now 7pm and I'm looking forward to a great chat.

Porter: 1:41

Yeah, me too, man, me too. There's a lot of stuff that you've done in your experience and in your outlook on life I can't even begin to fathom. I feel like what you know is what I've read about in fiction books or what I've seen in sci-fi shows Like we're talking what extraterrestrial life in exoplanets. Is that your focus or what are you specializing in?

Ian Hall: 2:03

Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. So, yeah, we have a couple of different research projects that we work on here at TAS, and you've hit the nail on the head. So those two things the first project is the search for extraterrestrial intelligence and the second project is around exoplanet hunting. So I guess those two things are very much rooted in science fiction the search for life and the search for the possibility of intelligent life. Two very different things, I hasten to add. But yeah, so that's what we concentrate on in terms of our research projects.

Porter: 2:34

Super cool, and so if you had to qualify, this is probably too deep for the first three minutes of the conversation, but if you had to qualify, hey, we found life. What is that based on? There's got to be some sort of threshold right, yeah, sure.

Ian Hall: 2:50

So I think it's probably quite important to establish the difference between the two projects. First, and what do we mean by life and what do we mean by intelligence? Because if we search for life, we will probably find initially bacterial life, and that might, may well be found within the bounds of our own solar system. So in not too many years we'll send astronauts to Mars. Those astronauts will dig in the surface of Mars and we may well find microbes or possibly fossils. So either actual physical bacterial life that is currently still living or evidence of past life. So, for the benefit of the listeners, it's microscopic organisms, goo, basically, and we'd be really happy with that. If we found that on Mars, that would be a triumph and find for science. And then, of course, there's the search for intelligence, which is completely different. So that is, I guess, looking for another civilization maybe. I mean, intelligence doesn't have to have progressed as far as the human civilization to be intelligent. You know, a dolphin is intelligent or to some extent a goldfish is intelligent as well. So creatures or complex life is the kind of mission, if you like, in the second project. So I guess they're the two cut off points for me really, in terms of finding life on other planets. It's difficult, isn't it? Because we're not going to travel to very many of those places very soon. We'll travel to Mars, certainly within our lifetime, hopefully, and we may be lucky and we may find life there. But if we don't, you know, it's going to be probably quite a long time before we make a physical journey to another location where we think that life might have had an opportunity to take hold. So that is done, I guess, more often than not, with the kind of the search for planets that are like ours, with conditions that are like ours. So we would typically look for planets that are the correct distance from their home star to be able to have liquid water on their surface, or, better still, water in all three states on its surface, like we have. So we can have frozen water, ice in the Arctic and Canada and places in your country and even here in the UK when it gets cold, and then obviously clouds and steam and water as a gas, but also, and probably most importantly, the capability for that planet to have standing liquid water on its surface, because that pretty much is the centre of all life when we find it on planet Earth, and you know NASA have got a famous saying if you want to find life, follow the water. That is what we tend to do, and the search for intelligence is something very different. And in terms of how would we do that? We would actually look for something probably closer to what we would call a techno signature, so you can see the evidence of the human civilization from a huge distance away. The lights that light up our cities, the radio waves that are emitted from our planet, from things like radio and TV, cell phones, all those different type of technology, even to some extent our satellites, all that kind of stuff is visible from a very long way away. So that's the type of thing that we would look for if we were looking for intelligence. So I guess it's really quite a long confluted explanation, but they are our two cut off points, if that helps people to understand.

Porter: 6:15

Well, I hope so, and without speaking for anybody else, it helps me understand at least. So I appreciate the clarity. But when you're talking about intelligent life, I mean you're listing a lot of modernities that we have now radio, satellite vehicles, lights, whatever that type of thing, but even electricity to a certain degree. But if I were to say that intelligent life is any sort of species or organism that's aware of its detriment and is looking out for its welfare, does that sort of fall into that qualifier?

Ian Hall: 6:47

Yeah, absolutely yeah. It's obviously from an observation perspective. It's much more difficult to see that from a long way away. Well, you know, so if we have a lot of like a herd of offal or something that are roaming around the surface of an exoplanet somewhere, that's extremely difficult for us to see, that virtually impossible for us to see that. So we tend to trend towards looking for life that's capable of the development of technology similar to ours just because it's visible from much further away. So until our yeah, until our methods get better in terms of trying to seek out bio signatures rather than techno signatures, you know, generally you have to be a lot closer to a planet or have the ability to be able to do something more than just observe the light, which is essentially what we're, essentially what we're looking for when we, you know, when we look out at an exoplanet somewhere millions and millions of light years away, we can see the atmosphere around that planet and we see the starlight coming through that atmosphere, and then we're able to get information about what that planet might be like, what it might be made of, the type of gases and materials that are in its atmosphere, by studying that light. So it's a very complicated way to study something that's a long way away, but also it's very basic in the information it gives us. So we're kind of working on this sort of equilibrium point, if you like, where we try to find as much information as we possibly can, but actually the depth of that information at the moment is still quite shallow.

Porter: 8:22

Well, I imagine it would be. There's only so much we've gathered so far to understand how to interpret and apply it. So that makes sense. But I mean, that's really only half the equation, isn't it? Because the other half, then, is how do you communicate it effectively? And more in your case, how do you make science accessible enough so people understand it? Yeah, to say that there's I don't know, a sentient species on a different planet may sound great in scientific circles and make perfect sense, but in an elementary school or a primary school, for example, maybe not right. So in conveying some of those things to people, at least, it's been my experience that, not in an attempt to find intelligent life, but in an attempt to communicate that there are factors maybe we all don't understand in the same congruity as anybody else to communicate that, I've tried to sort of establish or confirm my own theory socially that at least, because we all have a value system, we're able to understand what each other is going through and talking about, maybe without using those words, and I can't help but think that's a parallel to what you're attempting to accomplish when it comes to teaching and educating as well, because you can't necessarily use the same words. You're absolutely right, yeah, so I'm curious, then I guess, well, let's do this. This is a segment of the show called developing, character Developing character. So for anybody new to the show, this is two questions, ian, totally from your perspective and as vulnerable as you want to be, but it's about your value system, and then I'll use this to springboard here in a second. So my first question, ian when you were growing up, what were some of your values?

Ian Hall: 9:59

Yeah, it's a really good question, isn't it? And they do change as you get older, for sure. So I think, growing up, I think there's a huge element of respect for information. I think I've always had that respect for authoritative information, which is what really led me into a career in science to try and understand some of that information, to become, ultimately to become a scientist, but to become someone that was more knowledgeable of the world around them and the way it worked. I guess when my friends were building stuff out of Legos and things like that, I was looking up at the sky and wondering why the moon didn't fall out and I was quite desperate to know the answers to those questions, and they pretty rapidly turn into some enormous questions. So I've always had this huge respect for information and for scientific study, the accumulation of knowledge, wherever that might be, and that's not just in science, that can be in any field. So, whatever your field is, whatever you do, if you are a chef or if you are a business person, or if you work in the military, we all have different bodies of knowledge that we need to take on in different sizes, and it's hard to learn. It's hard to learn and it's hard to be wrong and it's hard to get stuff wrong and fail, and we all do those things, and I think that is an important part of my values as a young person to learn the respect for the body of information, especially for people that were much more experienced in it than I was at the time, and also to learn a bit of respect for the fact that people have to fail. We have to do that in order to get better. So, yeah, for sure, that was, I guess, one of my grounding principles.

Porter: 11:45

Well, so then, if anything's changed, that's a perfect point for my second question. What, then, are some of your values now?

Ian Hall: 11:52

I think that with any sort of knowledge comes a sense of responsibility to educate those people. If we think about, I guess, more knowledge on the right-hand side of you and less knowledge on the left-hand side of you, to always educate or try your best to educate those people on the left-hand side of you, but without doing that in a patronizing way, and I think that's. We've all had good teachers and bad teachers, good bosses, bad bosses in our time and I think now strive to try and educate people about science, because that's my job as a science communicator to do that and I have a responsibility to do that. But actually everyone to the left-hand side of me, if you like, who doesn't have perhaps as much knowledge in my area, that's not because they're less intelligent, it's because they haven't had the opportunities or the study period or even the application or the desire to take that knowledge on. That I've got, and not everybody needs to have a huge depth of knowledge, but if someone is interested in something, then I think we all owe it to those people to just give them a little bit of our time where we possibly can and try to bring them on board with our subjects, and I try to do as much believe it or not, for anyone that's listening. Try to do as much talking as I do listening, if that makes sense. Try to really strike that balance.

Porter: 13:10

I do like to talk a lot, I'm already focused a bit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value. What do deep space exploration, the search for extraterrestrial intelligence, cancer research and bacteria or microbes have in common with? Everyone Ever wanted to learn what impacts astrodynamics, space walks or even nuclear reactions have on the future of human life in outer space? Or maybe you're more in my crowd still trying to figure out what any of those phrases actually mean. Well, enter the average scientist, a UK-based business using STEM to make science articles, videos and podcasts more accessible for the rest of us. Unleash your inner scientist as you develop mutual respect for opinions and scientific research alike. Cultivate your understanding of the world around you and beyond, as this team of certified scientists excellently delivers all manner of scientific information so that we can all better understand it. Join the average scientist to not only destigmatize how hard science can be to learn, but also to discover that we're all actually part of the most incredible story ever told. Start your journey on their website, theaveragescientistcouk, today.

Ian Hall: 14:22

I try to do as much, believe it or not, for anyone that's listening. Try to do as much talking as I do listening, if that makes sense. Try to really strike that balance. I do like to talk a lot.

Porter: 14:33

I think it's a great opportunity, though and a great way to phrase it too, because I mean just here on Earth, for example to reel this back into our atmosphere for a second, even here on Earth, in my experience at least, any society that's going to be able to make progress or to become more intelligent, say, tomorrow than it was yesterday in any gradual or scalable sense, has to be able to communicate, relate to itself to some degree right for its betterment. Otherwise it's not progressing, it's not getting better by semantic definition, I guess and so to find ways to communicate those things and, I agree, in a tactful sort of non-patronizing manner, but to be able to communicate those things even if somebody has an interest, helps. One thing I've found to be a bit more difficult, though. So I'm currently active duty for anybody listening to this who's unfamiliar with the show in the Marine Corps in the US and so, over my deployments and my experience so far, not everybody has the same interests around the world, and even in the units I've been assigned to, but you still have to find ways to teach and work together and foster camaraderie and teamwork and build towards a common sort of unified goal and mindset. So the counterpoint, I think to what you just said, ian. If somebody has an interest, stoke the fire, sort of strike. Well, the iron's hot type mentality. What happens if people aren't interested? How do you breed awareness? How do you, I guess, exemplify commonalities and try to reach those people as well?

Ian Hall: 15:59

You're absolutely right. There are tons of people that are not interested in every subject, but in science particularly, for a number of different reasons. That could be they think it's too complicated, or they find it boring, or they don't believe it. That's another big dynamic that we have to face on an almost daily basis these days, with things like science denial and stuff like that, and the onset of the internet hasn't helped that sort of thing. So how do we combat that? Well, I think we have to come away from talking to people in just our own language, because whatever subjects that you're studying or whatever subject you're an expert in, it can always get to a point where the discussion between two people that are very educated or very experienced in a particular subject is so complex that actually you can isolate people from the outside. So what we try to do is to try and demystify those science subjects a little bit and try to make them a little bit more interesting, and generally what we do from that is drop the technical stuff so you don't need to be a scientist to understand most scientific subjects. If I'm being completely honest, you probably need to be a scientist and you need a pretty good command of math to prove or challenge some of those theories, some of that information that you might find out. But you certainly don't need to be a scientist or a very technically capable mathematician to understand some of this stuff. So when we try to go out to people that aren't previously or haven't previously shown interest in these subjects, we just try and drop all the technicalities and focus on the human element of it, tell the story of science rather than just the detail. So you know something like string theory. Why might someone be interested in that? What use is that going to be to me in my life? Well, there are lots of stories. I won't go into them today, but there are lots of stories about why that could affect us or why it could be cool, or why it might help us to understand where we've come from or where another civilization might have sprung from. There's all of this sort of fundamental information about the place that we live, because we all live in the same place. We all live on the same planet. We're all living on this one island of meaning that's hurtling through the universe and we might be alone Before we've got is each other. You know quite a few of us on this planet, but in the big scheme of things, in the size and scale of the universe, if we're the only ones, what a tremendous responsibility that we have to respect one another, to look after one another, to end our petty disagreements and find ways to work together. And there are professions, there are fields, that work together better than others. I really was excited to come on this podcast because of what you do for your job, because I draw a lot of parallels, oddly, between working in science and working in the military. So I would suspect that you have things like assumed respect, so you're not going to challenge something, because actually we're not going to challenge everything, but there is a sort of a chain of command, if you like, whether that is a person or whether it's a set of rules, and it's sometimes okay to challenge that, but mostly we have to just stay in a respectful position because that work has been done already. And scientists, I think, are also extremely good at taking and giving criticism to one another without taking offence, something that I see as a real issue in society today. People become offended very, very quickly if there's critique, but we criticize each other all the time and in my job I could have been working on sleep for 10 years. And if somebody walked into my lab tomorrow and told me that the last 10 years of work that I'd done was complete BS and it was all wrong, I wouldn't get angry about that. I just asked them to show me.

Porter: 19:46

Yeah, I mean, if somebody comes in, right, if it's all based on theory, theory is only good until time has proven it, not good, right? So eventually, by definition, it's going to be not good. You might just be the one holding the hot potato. So I think it's a great example and it definitely certainly does exist. And I'm curious, the point you brought up about essentially what everybody seems to be saying and thinking about space what if we aren't alone? Right, and the promise and the potential that could bring, which I'm sure is phenomenal, not the least of which for Hollywood. But the question you just asked, I think, is almost more impactful Right, what if we are? What if we are? The amount of responsibility that we have to learn to work with each other and get over our petty disagreements. I'm paraphrasing what you said, but to that point, what a novel perspective. And if it's not, maybe again I'm just ignorant, but it's the first time I've thought about it. And yeah, super cool, man. Here's the extent of what I know about space A diorama in fourth grade. I understand the planets and stars in basic terms and I'm familiar with the number 42 and dolphins. But, like you know, beyond that I feel like all the information that you're collecting, to a certain parallel degree, all the information that humanity collects via social media or and I don't mean tech, I mean whatever mediums humans are using to be social all of the inputs and information that we're collecting, we still have to figure out how to process and what to do with it, just as much as you do, and there's plenty of parallels there between your example of scientists in the military as well. All right, folks, stay tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value. Alrighty, folks, here at Transacting Value, we write and produce all the material for our podcast and house game perspective alongside you, our listeners, and exchange vulnerability and dialogue with our contributors every Monday morning. But for distribution, buzzsprout's a platform to use. You want to know how popular you are in Europe or how Apple is a preferred platform to stream your interviews? Buzzsprout can do that. You want to stream on multiple players through an RSS or custom feed, or even have references and resources to take your podcast's professionalism, authenticity and presence to a wider audience? Buzzsprout can do that too. Here's how Start with some gear that you already have in a quiet space. If you want to upgrade, buzzsprout has tons of guides to help you find the right equipment at the right price. Buzzsprout gets your show listed in every major podcast platform. You'll get a great looking podcast website, audio players that you can drop into other websites, detailed analytics to see how people are listening, tools to promote your episodes and more. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. The team at Buzzsprout is passionate about helping you succeed. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world. Plus, following the link in the show notes lets Buzzsprout know we sent you, gets you a $20 credit if you sign up for a paid plan and helps support our show. You want more value for your values. Buzzsprout can do that too. Whatever mediums humans are using to be social all of the inputs and information that we're collecting we still have to figure out how to process and what to do with it. Just as much as you do and there's plenty of parallels there between your example of scientists and the military as well we may be getting information at I guess, conceptually or metaphorically the speed of light in a battlefield type situation. You guys, I don't know, maybe you're actually getting information at the speed of light in some of your tests, but to get the information and you look at it and process and you say, oh cool, look what we found. So what? You know what I mean. How do you learn how to ask better questions? Because I have a feeling it's not for the want of more information.

Ian Hall: 23:42

Yeah, you've actually dropped on a really amazing point there and it's really cool that you've picked up on that, because science often isn't about finding the answer. Sometimes finding the answer can be relatively simple. What's much more difficult is asking the right question. So you're absolutely right there and I suspect that, there again, I have literally no experience of the military whatsoever, apart from having family members that serve in the armed forces in the UK. So I guess a few minor conversations or whatever, but I've certainly never done any of that type of work myself. But I do suspect that there are parallels there again, asking the right question at the right time is probably very important to military operations at times, I suspect. So, yeah, it's very hard to filter and we just get it wrong. We get it wrong all the time and that is okay. We get it wrong probably 99 times out of 100, and that's okay as well. But I guess with science it's persistent. We probably don't have the importance of asking the right question at the right time at quite such a critical mass as something like your job, for example, which would literally be a case of life and death sometimes. I suspect my father was a paramedic before he retired and, having had conversations with him, certainly questions that he would ask himself would be a case of life and death, so that kind of pales something like my job into insignificance from a personal perspective to me. I can afford to get something wrong quite a few times and before I reach the right answer, so I guess I've never been under that pressure to ask the right question at the right time on a really high frequency of occasions and that terrifies me, to be honest.

Porter: 25:18

Well, you've got quite some distance, don't you? I mean like literally you've got light years, but of time and sort of intentional distance. But it's also sort of different planes of existence, right, like what you're talking about in terms of, let's say, war, fighting or medicine in some respects, and life and death considerations. There's obviously physical implications there, but it's also a bit more of a spiritual, moral, ethical type. You've got to weigh out a lot of things there where more often than not, when it comes to science, you're not really concerned with necessarily physicality or spiritualism. In what you're looking at, right, it's mostly more I don't want to say germane, but it's mostly more mathematical and theoretical, right? It?

Ian Hall: 26:04

is yeah, and you are right. However, we do have one or two areas where I think there's this philosophical undercard that's running underneath it that we need to start thinking about quickly, and the one for me is Mars. So Mars is a really important, it's a really important location for us. The missions that are being undertaken by NASA the Artemis missions from your country at the moment are underway, so Artemis-1 has launched and has orbited the moon. Next year, we'll send astronauts into lunar orbit for the first time in over 50 years. In 2025, the first woman will walk on the moon. So there are all these landmark things and these are all great for the human conquest of space exploration, et cetera, but they are a stepping stone to Mars. And with Mars comes some big things that we need to think about, not just as a science community, but as a civilization. So say, for example, if we send astronauts to live and work on Mars and one of those astronauts commits a crime, whose laws does Mars fall under? Who creates the law? Who decides the punishment? If two astronauts go to Mars and they conceive a child, what nationality is that child? What passport does it hold? And we might think that these are things from science fiction, but this scares me to death and I really hope it's sort of, in the nicest possible way scares some of your listeners to death as well, because it's absolutely true. The average age of a NASA astronaut is about 35 years and we are about 25 years away from landing on Mars. So if you have a 10-year-old child in your family now, that child is a potential Martian astronaut, and that is terrifying. It's in our generation. Now it's within our grasp to send human beings to another planet, potentially to live and work, and with that comes a massive set of social and philosophical implications that I don't see, at this current point in time, that anyone is giving any airtime to thinking about. I mean, I guess the government, the world, must be thinking about this, but in a democracy and we're lucky to live in one of those in my country and yours surely this sort of thing has to be thought about in terms of a vote. We need an opinion on this, don't we? And that scares me to death. And that is a thing that is coming, and it's an unstoppable motion. Mars make no mistake about it, everyone that's listening is a race, just like the moon was a race between USA and Russia in the 60s. Mars is a race again and we might not necessarily agree with the amounts of money that it costs to develop technology to send human beings to Mars. And there are a number of different reasons why I don't necessarily agree with all these reasons, but there are a number of different reasons why going to Mars is inevitable. We need to inspire our next generation of scientists, mathematicians, engineers, creative people all of these different types of people that work in these fields or going to work in these fields are currently in the education system. That's a nice thing, and not so nice thing maybe would be. Would we really want some of the leaders that exist in the world today reaching Mars before a nation or an amalgamation of nations with good intentions? Probably not. These people are dangerous enough with the country, let alone if they manage to grasp hold of an entire planet.

Porter: 29:35

Alright, folks, stay tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

Ian Hall: 30:31

A not so nice thing maybe would be would we really want some of the leaders that exist in the world today reaching Mars before a nation or an amalgamation of nations with good intentions? Probably not. These people are dangerous enough with a country, let alone if they manage to grasp hold of an entire planet. So Mars is a race. We have a responsibility to the good, democratic people of the world to make sure that we reach Mars with good intentions. So it's a race and we'll have to get there.

Porter: 31:00

That's kind of a cool balance too when you think about it. I mean all of the hard skills, let's call them, of being a scientist in your case, or specifically, let's say, of being a rocket scientist, or developing the tech, even to a certain degree, to get us there, or the financing or the I don't know legislation and all of the other things that go into space travel. All the hard skills to do that, all the learned skills to do that, I think are obviously necessary but have to be balanced by the soft skills to communicate with each other, negotiate with each other, compromise with each other, work with each other, develop and form these teams. And it's almost like 30% of the effort, or whatever statistical percentage of the effort, is the glue holding the team together. So maybe the only thing we have in common like in this podcast, potentially is the fact that two strangers have a common necessity for relying on a value system to make decisions. Maybe some of those values are even held in common and then it's a stronger bond. Maybe after that we're able to communicate sans any language barrier, we're able to communicate effectively, to work together, and then, whatever differences we have on that team, we're able to settle enough to compromise and work towards a common goal. Because, I mean, could you imagine if the first team that gets to Mars just happened to argue so much that it was some sort of irreconcilable, menial, trivial difference that caused the whole project to fail because somebody didn't pay attention to a sensor while they were arguing, you know, or something trivial? So it's interesting you bring that up and I think or at least to me it is that all of the skills and all of the insight have to still be balanced by an ability to communicate effectively and reason through a line with humanities. Like everything still has a collective place, maybe not as large a role, maybe a larger role, depending on your school of thought, but there's still a role, and I think that's pretty cool In your efforts, I'm curious and in your efforts to destigmatize, I guess, the role of science. What does that look like to you? Because we're not going to have a bunch of scientists graduating primary school. It still takes 20, 25 years to get any clout or direction in a scientific career, right? So how do we start off on that path and get Martian scientists or extraterrestrial children or any of these other potential end game scenarios?

Ian Hall: 33:28

It has to start with a fascination. I think I'm not going to be one of those guys that kind of says that you know, all of our kids today spend too much time watching YouTube or playing on video games or whatever it might be. But I guess there is a balance to strike when thinking about the activities that our kids do. And you know we have a responsibility as scientists to encourage kids to be curious. Because, you know, in a world where actually I don't know how it works in the States, but our school teachers here in the UK have become really congested. It's a great job and it's a very fulfilling job, but it's also an incredibly busy job, and I'm sure it's the same for teachers all over the place. So there are pressures to meet this target or that deadline or do this or do that, and we used to have school teachers that were kind of multidisciplinary in the UK. So you might go to school and have a geography teacher that was also your PE teacher. That was definitely a thing. But we're seeing less of that now because teachers are coming under so much pressure for clerical work and administrative work, et cetera, and therefore the level of education that they're able to deliver is literally just to the curriculum and nothing more. So we don't tend to enrich kids anymore, and one thing that I found in the UK is that if you're really great at a science subject, there's nowhere for you to go. So if you're in a school in the UK and I'm sure it's the same in the States if you're really great at sports, you go and join the football team or you go and join the baseball team or whatever it might be. And if you're great at music, there'll be music projects, you can go and join an orchestra or a school band or whatever it might be. But if you're good at science, there isn't anything for you to do after school finishes at 3pm or 4pm or whatever time you knock off, and that feels wrong, that we don't have STEM clubs or whatever. It might be something to foster these arc of imagination in these kids to ask questions, because science is asking questions, and so much. Now I hear kids' questions being crushed. Don't ask me that or I haven't got time to answer that question for you, but science is literally asking the questions that no one knows the answer to, and I feel like we need to listen to our kids a bit more when they ask questions. I'm a big believer in nothing is a dumb question ever. I say that to everybody no matter how dumb you think a question is, it's never a dumb question If you don't know the answer to it. It's all you're doing is seeking to improve your own knowledge. So as a scientist, I get that preceded from questions all the time. People say to me oh, it's probably a dumb question, but and I have to constantly kind of educate people and say please don't say that about yourself, it's never a dumb question. If you don't know the answer. There's plenty of stuff I don't know but I wouldn't ever think about saying it might be a dumb question, but I guess that's again, just working in this field trains your brain and your personality into understanding that if you don't know something, it's okay to say that and it's okay to say I don't know and ask someone who does so. I guess that's the way that I think that we need to foster the kids' imaginations is really just to listen to them, to encourage them to ask questions, certainly encourage them to ask questions about the world that they live in and listen when they've got something to say if they challenge a point. I listen to kids all the time and they come up with. Kids come up with the best questions. We do lots of live science presentations here in the UK so these are not like traditional science lectures type things. They're a bit more and my other guys that the average scientist will laugh at me for using this term but they're a bit more street than they are lecture hall. So we like to try and we like to try and kind of bring it down to ground level a little bit more.

Porter: 37:12

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Ian Hall: 38:15

These are not like traditional science lectures type things. They're a bit more and my other guy is that the average scientist will laugh at me for using this term but they're a bit more street than they are lecture hall. So we like to try and kind of bring it down to ground level a little bit more and tell the stories et cetera. And when we do that and we engage with kids and adults, the kids ask the most amazing questions and I never tire of trying to answer them. And it's amazing actually how quick an astrophysicist of 47 years old can reach and I don't know answer from a 10-year-old kid. It's really quick. Sometimes it's two questions. That's great, isn't it? That is great, and I think empowering our kids in that way, I think, is really important For you. Not every kid is going to grow up and come through school being interested in science, but it's important to understand that every kid coming through school can be interested in science and can work in science fields if they want to. Being a researcher is just one job. It's just one job of many that are involved, and in the UK now and again I'm sure it's the same in the States, we have these sort of acronyms that we like to put around for science careers or science fields, if you like, and we use STEM science, technology, engineering, mathematics. I'm sure you have that in the States as well, but there's a trend which we love in the UK at the moment to turn that acronym, stem into STEAM. So, with the A now representing the arts, and the arts are really important because the arts are storytelling, they are creating amazing outreach materials to engage with people. Being a videographer, being a historian, being someone that can talk to a thousand people at once and keep them interested in a subject which previously they may not have been interested in All of these are artistic traits and that is such a cool thing for kids to understand that if they do have those talents and those interests, they can absolutely work in science. And not only can they work in science, science needs them, we need them.

Porter: 40:28

I can definitely appreciate that Matter of fact, just within the last month maybe two, no, I can't remember we had a lady come on the show, her name's Nealey and she talked about how she's creating children's science centers here in the States so that kids can go and experiment and, more importantly, experience, like you brought up, failures and different decisions and different impacts of their decisions. And you know, I think the ironic thing to everything you just described, despite the amount of skill and the amount of faith and everything that's inherent in that process, to however you ascribe, faith and skill is sort of relative. But all of those things that you just described, if nothing else in this conversation, when we started, the last thing I expected to stumble on by the end of this conversation now is that you, studying space and exoplanets, taught you something about humans and in working with humans, you were able to learn about space and I mean it seems like such an isolating field studying math and statistics and gravitational pools and astrophysics and all of these things that don't have a as impactful of a role here to most people on earth that learning about space taught you about people. Learning about science taught you about communication. You know, it's such a weird synergy that all of these things actually have, and I'm sure you've come to realize, looking at planets in space, that everything's sort of in a balance, despite the chaos. I really appreciate the opportunity and not to cut this too short, but for the sake of time I have to, but I really do, like I said, that realization alone set me back a couple steps. I wasn't prepared to stumble on that, so I appreciate your perspective, man. If anybody wants to reach out, for example, to the average scientist, or to follow along with your videos or any of your research, or even potentially get hired and get involved, what are some outlets? How do people follow along and track you down?

Ian Hall: 42:22

Well, first of all, you can visit our website, so you can reach us on wwwtheaveragescientistcouk orcom, whichever is your preference. They both lead you to the same location. We're relatively active on social media, although some of those channels are quite embryonic and we're developing them because we're quite a small number of people, so we're probably predominantly active on Facebook, where, if you just type in the average scientist, you'll find us. We also have YouTube, tiktok and Instagram, so we try to put different content out on each of those channels. So, yeah, you can visit us on any of those channels or on our website, and you can also come onto the website and there's a form you can fill in there. We are a small team, so I will read the form. If you fill it in, I'll read it and I will promise to reply to everyone if they email me. So, yeah, please do get in touch, go to the website, tell us what you think, read some articles, watch some videos and do get in touch.

Porter: 43:17

Awesome and for everybody listening, all of the links to the average scientist and the social platforms that Ian had just mentioned. If you click See More or you click Show More depending on the streaming platform you're using to listen to this you'll be able to see links to those places in the description for this conversation and that'll take you there also, so that's an easier way to find it for you. You can do that as well, ian. Again, I appreciate the opportunity. I know you're busy, I know it's creeping on dinnertime, so I appreciate you taking a break and sharing your perspective with us. Man, this is so far for me in my life a pretty uncommon opportunity, and a rare one to talk to an astrophysicist, let alone about humanities. So I thought it was great.

Ian Hall: 43:53

Well, thank you. Thanks so much for having me. One thing that I wanted to say as well, which is something that I hugely admire about people that come from your country and something that I think is desperately lacking in the respect system here is what you do for your job, so it's quite unusual for a British person to say this to you, but thank you for your service.

Porter: 44:14

You're right, it is, and for keeping us safe. But I appreciate you saying that. Thank you, and to everybody listening, thank you guys. Thank you guys for tuning in and listening to our conversation and especially our core values for December of faith, hope and joy. I'd also like to thank all of your staff in there, at the average scientist, and everybody that you've been able to work with, because without their inspiration and your collaboration, I don't think this conversation would have been anywhere near as exciting as it was. So thank you to them, whoever they are, and if they ever hear this, I appreciate their opinions as well. Thank you to our show partners and folks. Thank you for tuning in and appreciating our value as we all grow through life together. To check out our other conversations, merchandise or even to contribute through feedback, follows, time, money or talent and let us know what you think of the show. Please reach out on our website, transacting Value Podcastcom. We stream new episodes every Monday at 9am Eastern Standard Time through all of your favorite podcasting platforms and we'll meet you there. Until next time, that was Transacting Value.