Porter: 0:05

Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for personal values when dealing with each other and even within ourselves. Where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries and finding belonging. My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are your people. This is why values still hold value. This is Transacting Value.

Tom Hubler: 0:32

All of us have an experience of growing up in our own families and they color and create our lens of how we look at the world and look at ourselves.

Porter: 0:44

Alrighty, folks, welcome back to Transacting Value, where we're encouraging dialogue from different perspectives to unite over shared values. Now our theme for season four is intrinsic values, so what your character is doing when you look yourself in the mirror. Now, if you're new to the podcast, welcome, and if you're a continuing listener, welcome back. Today we're talking our November core values of gratitude, appreciation and resilience, and also our final, fourth and final, actually, mini series of this season called Inherent Value. So we're also going to be showcasing things that give our intentions, traditions, fondest memories, essentially depth, resonance and sentimentality. So today's conversation, we're showcasing all of those things with author, speaker and dean of Family Business Consulting, tom Hübler, and we're going to dive a little bit into family business, family dynamics and family isms in this conversation. So, folks, without further ado, on Porter, I'm your host and this is Transacting Value. Tom, how are you? How's life?

Tom Hubler: 1:46

Things are going well. I had a great weekend my grandson's here visiting from down in Illinois, so we've had a great time together.

Porter: 1:53

Down in Illinois. Where are you?

Tom Hubler: 1:55

Down in Illinois, in Lebanon, illinois, about 20 miles east of St Louis, and he came up for the weekend, so we've spent the weekend together.

Porter: 2:03

Nice, nice, and where are you located? St.

Tom Hubler: 2:05

Paul Minnesota.

Porter: 2:07

Oh, okay, yeah, Minnesota, sure, sure, all right, so let's actually start there. So, for everybody who's listening, tom and I are actually on a video call, but since we're only recording and posting the audio, tom, let's just open with that for a second. Who are you? Where are you from? What sort of things have shaped your perspective?

Tom Hubler: 2:24

I'm from St Paul. I grew up in St Paul. I live about six blocks from where I grew up. And obviously one of the formative things in my life and it's true for everyone is my family of origin and growing up in my family, with my parents and so forth, and the many, many challenges that were part of our family. And when I was a young professional I was out giving a talk and someone asked how I got into the psychology business. I said well. I spontaneously said well. There are two answers. The first one was I did well in psychology and that's how I happened to get into the profession, I said. But the real answer is the honest answer is I started as an unpaid volunteer in my own family at age seven. So I've been involved in families ever since I was a kid. So things were really challenging. I was an inner city kid, so that also has had a major impact on me. And the other thing that had a major impact was I was the sacrist and one of my jobs when I was in college I was the sacrist and at the cathedral in St Paul, which was a big Catholic cathedral in St Paul and there was a. The pastor was a bishop and he would go to Rome during the Vatican Council and deal with all the issues and politics of the Catholic Church and I could go into his office. He was a very shy and quiet guy, but I could go into his office and sit down and talk with him and we discussed what was going on at the Vatican Council and I'd say, ask him how he voted on that issue, and he'd tell me. I said, oh, bishop, you blew it on that one. So here was this little teenager, obviously a little lower than a teenager, but anyway he was the one that helped me go to college and gave me some money to help me with school and said you don't have to pay this back, but if you're ever in a position to help somebody, I hope you'll do it. So he's had a major impact on my career and I'm the beneficiary of a lot of generosity and blessings and, essentially, gratitude for how I've been treated over the years, and so those are some of the major formative things of my life. And then I should have mentioned the other thing that's been significant, I think, is that I worked for a while. I worked at the St Cloud Children's Home when I was going to school up in St Cloud and I was a cottage parent and we had little kids, little boys, little girls who were eight, nine, 10 years old, who had emotional problems, and if you had evening duty you would tuck them in and put them to bed and so forth, and they wanted to be a kiss goodnight and told they were loved, and it didn't make any difference who you were, what color you were, any of that sort of stuff. And so when I got out of, school and started working eventually at Catholic Charities in St Paul. The entry level jobs were doing adoptions and there was this book of hard to place kids, and so there were black kids, mixed race kids, Native American kids and white kids with physical disabilities, and so I ended up and I wasn't married at the time, but I made the decision and we ultimately adopted two black children so that we have a racial sort of blended family. So that's been another major influence on my life.

Porter: 5:17

You know it's interesting. Well, a lot of that stuff is interesting, but one of the points you most recently just made you were talking about this book of hard to place kids and then working the evening shift at St Cloud Children's Home. People, I think, in more stressful situations, like in this case for these kids all more readily showcase how much they want to feel valued or how vulnerable they're willing to be in showing that when they're, I think, more under stress. But it's a common point of equality, I think, for everybody. Everybody wants to be heard and loved and feel like they have value and their perspective has worth and shown that, or at least told it every so often on occasion. For people who are new to this podcast, I'm active duty in the Marine Corps and, despite whatever stereotypes you may hear or see and Crayola, I'm sorry, no matter how delicious your flavor sound, we don't actually drag our knuckles and eat crayons. There's a lot of pride with that comes with the image and agency of becoming a Marine in the Marine Corps, specifically as a veteran, active duty, reservist, whichever but one of the things that is not so readily showcased, either within the Marine Corps towards other Marines or externally, from Marines to our families, to our friends, to our Tom. What did you call them? Not families of origin, families of creation? Is that Marines also appreciate feedback and feeling like they're heard or they're valued. And don't get me wrong, part of the job entails you don't get a say, you're just going to do what you're told, and that sort of willing obedience to orders is necessary for a war fighting function within the Department of Defense. But my point is people all around the world that I've come across on my deployments and travels, Tom, some of the kids that you've just alluded to as well, like it's, it's a common trait for everybody. It doesn't matter the color of your skin, your background, your cultural upbringing, none of it, right? So, tom, let's start here. This is a segment of the show called developing character.

Tom Hubler: 7:18

Developing character.

Porter: 7:20

What it means is for anybody new essentially that we're showcasing a little bit more of Tom and again, however vulnerable you want to be, it's up to you, tom. But two questions right, and this is going to set the tone for the rest of our conversation, and this is all about your value system. So my first question what were some of your values growing up?

Tom Hubler: 7:39

I think you know, authenticity was one that was an important one, and being true to your values and then being connected to your values and being congruent was another characteristic. And I think valuing other people and in some sense look at it's back today and say, you know, like providing service and doing things to help other people be successful, was part of my formative years.

Porter: 8:04

I think so then my second question flows perfectly from there. Assuming there have been any changes, what are some of your values now?

Tom Hubler: 8:12

I think all of that stuff has been heightened and continued and includes the notion of empathy and compassion and acceptance. I think a big one that was again part of my religious training and background was forgiveness, and it's impossible to be in a family anybody's family with people you love and not inadvertently stepping each other's toes once in a while. It happens all the time. But the families that are successful are able to forgive each other and create a new beginning and the basis of the fact that they love each other, and love to me means the promotion of another person's well-being. That's the basis for the forgiveness and the new beginning that people have in terms of their commitment to each other in terms of family.

Porter: 8:55

All right, folks, stay tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value. Alrighty, folks, here at Transacting Value, we write and produce all the material for our podcast and house game perspective alongside you, our listeners, and exchange vulnerability and dialogue with our contributors every Monday morning. But for distribution, buzzsprout's a platform to use. You want to know how popular you are in Europe or how Apple is a preferred platform to stream your interviews? Buzzsprout can do that. You want to stream on multiple players through an RSS or custom feed, or even have references and resources to take your podcast's professionalism, authenticity and presence to a wider audience. Buzzsprout can do that too. Here's how Start with some gear that you already have in a quiet space. If you want to upgrade, buzzsprout has tons of guides to help you find the right equipment at the right price. Buzzsprout gets your show listed in every major podcast platform. You'll get a great looking podcast website, audio players that you can drop into other websites, detailed analytics to see how people are listening, tools to promote your episodes and more. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. The team at Buzzsprout is passionate about helping you succeed. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world Plus. Following the link in the show notes, lets Buzzsprout know we sent you, gets you a $20 credit if you sign up for a paid plan and helps support our show. You want more value for your values. Buzzsprout can do that too.

Tom Hubler: 10:28

That's the basis for the forgiveness and the new beginning that people have in terms of their commitment to each other, in terms of family.

Porter: 10:35

I'm assuming that's in any circumstance what I mean. For clarity, I guess in the beginning you mentioned family of origin. A few minutes ago I mentioned a family of creation, but these are terms you've sort of coined throughout your career. Can you dive into that real quick? What's the difference? What do they mean?

Tom Hubler: 10:54

Well, your family of origin is the one where you grew up, where all the lenses that how you view yourself and how you view the world were created. All of us have an experience of growing up in our own families and they color and create our lens that how we look at the world and look at ourselves. Our family of creation is the one that we create when we get married and have a significant other and eventually you usually have children. That's our family of procreation or creation, that type of thing. The two are different but they're certainly influenced. One of the issues that's inherent in that is that I grew up in my family of origin and my partner grew up in her family of origin, and they have different values. You can see where there's going to be or it could be In some instances. it is a challenge to how we're going to do things, how we're going to deal with things like money and children and laws, intimacy, leisure time all those sorts of things that are part of all of our families are a challenge and have to be discussed and resolved in a win-win fashion rather than win-lose. That's one of the other things that's important in relationships and families is solving the issues in a win-win fashion. You alluded to this earlier when you were talking about the Marine Corps. What I would say is there's a reciprocal commitment to each other's success. Despite the fact that you and I have different experiences of our families of origin, when we come together we have this reciprocal commitment and this common bond of our love for each other and our goal to create a family. We oftentimes are called to make a contribution to the common good of our relationship out of our love, our generosity, our sense of abundance and the trust that if I make a contribution now, you'll make a contribution when your turn comes. We all have turns. We're all going to have turns.

Porter: 12:47

I think, a lot of that gravity on what it is. We're willing to sacrifice, like you said, for the sake of somebody else's betterment or well-being. I think there has to be some level of genuineness around that because I don't know, let's say I don't care about money, but you asked to borrow $100. I say okay, sure, excluding other aspects of our relationship, assuming everything else is constant to this family of creation, choice or family of origin lens. If I give you the $100, I'm not really sacrificing much, even though to you the $100 is needed right now, and maybe you're grateful and appreciative and whatever, it's not really asking a lot of me because I don't really value money that highly. In this example, I think there has to be some degree of sacrifice to complement that willingness to put somebody above yourself. Yes, I agree with that. There's a saying, we'll call it for anybody listening greater love has no man than to lay down his life for another. I think to the point that you're bringing up Tom in terms of love in this case to counter-intuitively put yourself in a position where physically, emotionally, behaviorally, your entire central nervous system is telling you this is a good flight opportunity. Let's not stand here For you to say, actually I get that body and nerves, but we're going to stand here because the guy behind me doesn't deserve this or it shouldn't happen to him or for whatever number of reasons. That degree of sacrifice not to compare it to the $100, but that degree of sacrifice where you're actually putting something on the line that you value to help somebody else Is that more what you're alluding to when you're talking?

Tom Hubler: 14:29

about love and justice. You're willing to out of your love and your generosity, willing to make that kind of a sacrifice because you have this higher. When I deal with this concept in family businesses, we create a common family vision to unite the family at a superordinate level. It's under the auspices of this common vision that you're inspired to do these sorts of things, or it's out of your love for your family and your commitment and the bond that you have with your partner and there with your family that you're willing to make that sort of a generosity, a generous sacrifice.

Porter: 15:03

What do you mean when you say common family vision? Obviously, your focus is more family business. If that's the lens you answer from, that's fine. What does that actually entail? We're totally committed as a family to increase our revenue by 20%. Stamp it, slot the table. That's it. What do you mean.

Tom Hubler: 15:21

One of the questions I ask family members in the creation of the common vision are what are their family values? I asked them to make a list of their family values and each person has their own little list. Then we each share with each other what's on our list and create affinity groups. On the basis of the affinity groups, create a common vision that the goal is to recite it on a daily basis. It's not something you put in the drawer and forget about it, but the idea is to recite it on a daily basis. Then below that is a little family prayer which is may our family be filled with loving kindness, may our family be well, may our family be peaceful and ease and may our family be happy. Then below that on your sheet would be your individual vision. One of the other things that we would do is each member of the family would create their own individual vision. Then below that on your sheet would be the individual vision. The other members of your family put in the third person and you would make a commitment to recite that and to promote their well-being. I would do the same thing. My sheet would have the members of my family put in the third person and I would make a commitment to recite and promote their well-being. That type of thing. That's it. That's actually called kiting. Kiting is a Scottish word. It means that connecting at a spiritual level, every day that I would kithe to you that which you want. You know that I was doing that. Again, this is something that I do with my clients. I promote this as a way of creating well-being in your family, to unite you as a family around your vision and your values. That type of thing, for me, that's their secret sauce. It's their values.

Porter: 17:03

There's a lot of families, mine included growing up, they're talking about values explicitly. Well, it just doesn't happen.

Tom Hubler: 17:13

Now you understand the problem.

Porter: 17:15

Well, yeah, trust me, I made a podcast about it.

Tom Hubler: 17:17

I'm teasing now, but that's true. That's part of the problem is people don't discuss them. They're there, they're just below the surface, but they don't utilize them as a resource to help them create their well-being, for themselves and for other people.

Porter: 17:32

Well, I mean spiritual well-being, sure, but there's, I think, also other sort of implications we'll call them right, like efficiency of spending and budgeting and handling money as a family, or talking through stressors and how to manage life as a family. Or building your own support network and learning how to sort of I heard this recently cultivate your own herd. I'll put it like this If that's something as a family or as an individual in a family or a sphere of influence, let's call it that you're willing to leave up to chance. Well then, the results of how people deal with other people as they grow up is also left to chance, because there's no structure, there's no foundation. Alright, folks stay tight, and we'll be right back on Transacting Value. I'll put it like this if that's something as a family or as an individual in a family or a sphere of influence, let's call it that you're willing to leave up to chance. Well then, the results of how people deal with other people as they grow up is also left to chance, because there's no structure, there's no foundation. Here's an example growing up as a kid to the point you brought up, you called it a family prayer, and I think I'll sort of align this to that point. There was an Irish blessing on a plaque. I don't remember where it was now this was 30 some years ago maybe but I remember it hanging up on a wall somewhere in the house, maybe the kitchen or the dining room or the living room. Somewhere it said and anybody listening beat me for this later or leave me some comments if I say it wrong but it was something to the effect of may the road rise to meet you and may the wind be always at your back, may the sun shine warm upon your face and the rain fall soft upon your fields. And I think the bottom said may those that love us and those that hate us may God turn their ankles so we'll recognize them by their limping. And I think it was there and I'm pretty sure mom bought it just because it looked like an antique and it looked cool and whatever it fit her decor, I guess. But we never actually addressed it. I think I've read it a few times enough to at least remember it now, but I never actually considered it as something that was uniting our perspective or that could have been used to unite our perspective. And now as a family I wouldn't really say we have a close relationship, at least not in terms of communication or openness. We talk two or three times a month, my brother's, my mom and I, and that's about it. So in working in family business to me that sort of natural distancing of people through life. But working together in a business you don't get that distance. Maybe you even live together and work together and there is no distance. So how do you recommend balancing, developing this unity of effort and then also individual time and pursuing your own interests and these types of things?

Tom Hubler: 21:03

Well, the challenge is basically to maintain both your working relationship and your family relationship, and what happens from my perspective in family businesses is there's an emphasis on building and maintaining the work relationship, oftentimes at the expense of the family relationship, and so family members, basically, or business differences, begin to erode family relationships. And, from my perspective, you need to build the emotional equity of the family while you're simultaneously building the equity of the company and do things to maintain family unity and, at the same time, the notion of individuality, that there are individual differences and that people have different perspectives about closeness and time together, and you've got introverts and you've got extroverts and how they deal with the family are very different and there needs to be a system of respect that acknowledges that and it's okay for people to have their individual differences and we still respect each other for that.

Porter: 22:07

What would you say that respect or that perspective is rooted in, as you explain to kids or teenagers or young adults or older adults up and down the chain, in a family business or in any family structure, as you explain? Well, it's okay for Tommy to think these things because he's learning and growing and processing in his own way, and it's okay for Kevin to understand this is the right way to do things. Is that rooted in social science and logic and reason, or is that more rooted in emotions and intuition?

Tom Hubler: 22:40

There's a. It's an acronym that I use with my clients. It's called Managing from the Heart, and the E of the acronym is even if we disagree, please don't make me wrong and so the idea here is that it's okay to have different perspectives about an issue, and the idea is that's a source of generativity, it's a source of, it's a resource for the family, and that when we have differences, whatever they happen to be, if we have a common vision, we can unite around those differences and create a third or fourth way of doing something that we would have never been able to do as an individual. And so there's. You're smiling. Now what's going on?

Porter: 23:20

I'm John San. I just had this talk within the last couple of days because I spend a fair amount of time each week working, essentially, I guess you could say, in this business, podcasting my media company, whatever, but not a lot of time on this business and building it out and being more efficient with my efforts, I suppose. And she said, okay, well, what would you say among all of your efforts and all of your ideas and all your whiteboards and post it notes and whatever? She said what is the common vision uniting all of those things? And I said I have no idea. I had never. I never considered it right. It was just chasing these sort of individual things and I didn't have a way to tie them together. So it was just ironic timing that you're bringing up a similar point now. It just brought me back to that conversation the other night, so that's why I was smiling the wise person. Yeah, yeah, I'll tell you for what it's worth. After that conversation I threw away about 20 post it notes that were just more distractions than benefits, but that's neither here or there. You mentioned a common family vision and ways to I guess you could say more effectively reach that goal the last time we spoke, in addition to this hard acronym you just brought up right, Even if I'm wrong, I'm sorry. You said even if we disagree, please don't make me wrong. How do you convey that to somebody that, let's say, for 15 to 20 years has been a parental figure? And now you're 15 years old, or you you're seven years old and your family growing up and you're like you know what, mom, this is my time to shine. I know this. Take a backseat, I got it. How do you shift that role?

Tom Hubler: 24:54

One of the things that's really critical and any kind of unique difference like that is to make the other person to validate their perspective. And the idea is to say I really appreciate your perspective and I think for you it's just absolutely terrific, but I want you to know that I have a different perspective and I don't want to make I don't want to make yours bad or wrong, but I also want to be able to have you respect my perspective, and the idea is to create an environment where there's there could be mutual respect for each other's perspective about things. But if I say you're wrong about that and what you taught me over the years is no longer applicable because I'm seven years old or now I'm 22 years old, I'm on my own and what you've taught is baloney and that's making each other bad. And it's one of the problems is the vilification of the other person's perspective, and that's at an extreme which is going on in our culture these days. And there's a guy who wrote a book called the Righteous Mind. His name is Jonathan Hyde and he talks about how one side vilifies the other and neglects to acknowledge that each side has its own shortcomings. The liberal side has its shortcomings and so does the conservative side, but they vilify each other and that's what creates the problem, is the vilification. The same thing can happen in interpersonal relationships and families, where we vilify the other person and their perspective and make them at an extreme, make them wrong or bad, rather than to say, okay, I want to honor your perspective and I hope that you could honor mine, and then together we could create a third or fourth way of doing something that will get us to our goal in a win-win fashion rather than win-lose. And it's the win-lose right and wrong concept that creates many of the problems in families and in politics, in international affairs, all that sort of stuff.

Porter: 26:49

Yeah, right and wrong carries a kind of strange connotation to right, like it's. I mean, I'm pretty sure anyways I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure right and wrong are rooted more in morals than they are in legislation, and so to say what's right in actuality is just more appropriate at that point in time for that particular issue and then what's wrong is less appropriate at that point in time for that particular issue. And I don't think the way that you better handle it. All. Right, folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value. Are you a marketer, brand strategist, ceo or podcast fan at work seeing the benefit and profitability that podcast advertising can bring to your business, noticing that billion-dollar valuation that advertising through a podcast can convey? Or maybe you're just missing out on the millions of listeners to audio podcasts and wondering how do I reach that market segment? Recapitalize your wealth-generating strategy with Add Value through SDYT Media. Turn your business marketing gaps into Added Value. We'll work with your marketing team to highlight your brand's values, vision, mission and social governance with your product or service in a custom-designed audio-only, podcast-ready advertisement, written and recorded in-house with our decentralized team. Don't just think of adding value. Work with SDYT Media to transact it. Here's some of our work featured in Season 4 of the podcast Transacting Value, and visit TransactingValuePodcastcom to read along in the transcripts too. To work with SDYT Media Add Value and email the sdytmediacow at gmailcom. Today, to say what's right in actuality is just more appropriate at that point in time for that particular issue, and then what's wrong is less appropriate at that point in time for that particular issue. Well then, both people could theoretically be correct if one variable changed.

Tom Hubler: 28:56

Or take the best of your ideas and take the best of my ideas, and that's where we can create something that's unique, that we would never have done by ourselves.

Porter: 29:03

Oh, dude, yeah, I agree. And then you've got to have a little humility to accept that and compromise there. Right, yeah, you mentioned I'm not the center of the universe. That's a hard lesson taught, I think, you know, like my son right now he's nine years old, and not that he thinks that, but he is an only child and so there's some of those tendencies. He's special, well, of course, right, but it knows that Well, and that, I think, is where it becomes more problematic, right. The fact that he's aware that he's getting attention or things are his, or individuality or independence or whatever, is good. But then trying to temper that with okay, but modesty, humility, maybe contentment or giving or wanting to help, or servant leadership or something that will affect, that's tricky for a nine year old especially.

Tom Hubler: 30:02

But you've identified the characteristics that you're looking for, that you need to have him experience, even as a nine year old at his level, in order to create some balance between his perspective about himself and learning to be more humble and appreciative of other people's perspective.

Porter: 30:19

And being explained those things. That way worked for you at seven.

Tom Hubler: 30:23

No, it's a matter of providing experiences and doing things at the seven year olds level or the nine year olds level that will allow them to experience, in a positive way, the benefit of serving other people. So the way to help other people is service, is getting involved in doing something at even as a family, to help people, and that, in the context of doing that, I used to have to bail my kids out when they were teenagers, to bail them out of bed, to get them to do Thanksgiving meals on wheels, where we go out and deliver Thanksgiving dinners to families, and you know they I don't want to get up. I don't want to get up. Come on, we're going to go to this, and that's part of what I wanted to teach them is that this is something that we're going to do and we did, and despite the fact that they weren't that excited about it, we did it and that's, to me, gone a long way toward helping them develop those sense of values in terms of their concern for other people which they, in turn, teach to their children, my grandchildren.

Porter: 31:23

How did you incentivize that? Because now, especially in his case, let's go do these things and then, after we do these things, we'll go get ice cream. That sounds good. Oh, okay, that's feasible, or does it always need to be?

Tom Hubler: 31:36

incentivized. I'm going to reveal a secret now. One of the things that I did when my kids were little, when I was trying to get them to, you know, get out of diapers, was called potty candy. Do you know those corn candies, those little corn candies, yeah, so that if they would go on the toilet rather than the pot, they would get a corn candy, and so so I, my kids, used to call that potty candy anyway. So that even at that level and I was into psychology and all this stuff and conditioning and so forth so even at that level, you can do things to incentivize kids to do what you want them to do. I see there's going to be some sort of reward that they get.

Porter: 32:14

Equitable to what they feel is valuable.

Tom Hubler: 32:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's consistent with their level of whoever they are at that particular age. I like that. I've got a client right now where we're having we're going to have a meeting, I think, on the 9th of August where one of the problems is they got two adult daughters and these parents are doing everything for their daughters and their daughters are basically not doing anything and they're not developing their careers or not doing anything. And I said, well, they don't have to because you're doing everything for them. There needs to be a quid pro quo. And I said to my son one time and he was a young adult and he never emailed me, but he wanted me to do something for one of his kids and I said, john, I love you and so forth and so on, and I want to help you out here, but it's going to require a quid pro quo. And he said, well, what's that? I said it's something for something. That's Latin for something for something. And if you want me to do that, I want you to sign up for this workshop. And this was on a Friday. Well, saturday morning he'd signed up and off he went. He's not very psychologically minded and this was a psychology type workshop and, as it turned out, he ended up. I had somebody who was there who told me without getting into the confidentiality but all that he ended up being the star of the workshop. But the point was that if he was going to, if he wanted me to do something, he had to do something to get me off the dime, to get me to cooperate with him. And that's the way it is in terms of all relationships it's something for something.

Porter: 33:38

Is it always? Those are always.

Tom Hubler: 33:40

But there has to be, there has to be a balance there. These young ladies want their parents to. They provide cars and rent and all this other stuff. But they've got to do something, They've got to justify that, they have to earn that.

Porter: 33:53

Yeah, okay, I agree, and I think that's a little bit of a different lens too, though doing things to earn something. Vice, you know I need your help, so I need to give up something to do that. I don't think that's always the case. I think it's a little bit different. You know, for example, this podcast. Right, you and I spoke I think it was now a couple of weeks ago I forget the timeline, but I think it was a couple of weeks ago and you and I spoke about being able to showcase your values and then, obviously, an opportunity to showcase what I'm trying to accomplish, communicating about them and, more explicitly, creating dialogue around those things. That I'm able to give you an opportunity to share your perspective and you're able to give me an opportunity to share my perspective. Right, it's a win-win, I think, what we've established here. However, if I didn't have a podcast and I didn't have a platform, does that mean you would have been unwilling to tell me your perspective If I didn't have anything? I'm always willing to share my perspective.

Tom Hubler: 34:48

That's one of my problems.

Porter: 34:52

Well, that's sort of my point, though, right Like I think there's definitely opportunities where you can just sit out with somebody and ask questions and learn and not really have anything to offer in return. Well, I'm not sure about that.

Tom Hubler: 35:04

I mean because asking questions is a positive thing, because it helps people understand who they are.

Porter: 35:09

Good play, Tom Touche.

Tom Hubler: 35:13

So that's one of the things that happens in terms of like a counseling relationship. I could tell you what to do, or I can ask you questions and help you come to your own solution, and the idea of a good counselor will ask questions rather than tell you how to solve your problem, how to do it. So asking questions, the art of asking questions, is really an art, and it helps people understand who they are.

Porter: 35:38

That is a lifelong practice to learn and to hone right. But there's a line, right. Like parents tell kids all the time, stop asking so many questions, Right, right. At what point does that get stifled? At what point is that encouraged?

Tom Hubler: 35:52

I think that's one of the problems that parents have, is they basically they unfortunately are inadvertently stifle their kids? And it's important for the kids to ask questions, and just like it is important for the parents to ask questions, and the parents need to be able to. There's a book called Everyday Blessings the Inner Work of Mindful Parenting, and in there there's a seven parental intentions, and one of the intentions I think the fourth one, if I can remember correctly is to live your own life rather than live your life through your kids and not to put your fears on your children and so forth. And so it's important for parents to make, to create a boundary, if you will, between themselves and their children, and particularly their adult children.

Porter: 36:36

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Tom Hubler: 37:39

And so it's important for parents to create a boundary, if you will, between themselves and their children, and particularly their adult children. And just because we did it this way for me doesn't need to be the way we're going to do it for you as an adult person, that type of thing. So, while this book was written primarily for younger people with younger children, I use it with my clients for their adult children, sure.

Porter: 38:04

Yeah, I mean in a sense that tough love is equality. Every single one of your kids, whichever family origin or creation, every one of the family members has to work through their own challenges and build their own resilience In whatever path. I think that applies to even my family. Now I think we've grown apart to a certain degree, but only because we've started pursuing our own individual efforts and, I guess, trying to align more with those endeavors.

Tom Hubler: 38:31

My best guess is we've never talked about this, but my best guess is that you have family rituals of one kind or another, that you continue to celebrate where you share what's going on in your individual lives and continue to support and celebrate in a common core of love in your family that you created when you were growing up in your family of origin. Now I don't know if that's true or not?

Porter: 38:51

Well, we do sacrifice the heart of a virgin goat every Halloween. Yeah, no, I'm kidding, that's not accurate. I'm kidding. But what do you mean? Rituals, when you say that? What do you refer to? I mean?

Tom Hubler: 39:02

like rituals start, like when you think about when your son was really young, you had rituals, bedtime rituals and so forth and so on. Oh sure, sure. And so there are holiday rituals and birthday rituals and so forth, and families. I have rituals like going to the lake or doing this or doing that together, and those rituals are the glue that holds the family together, and they're different for every family, but I assume that your family, despite the fact that it's maintaining its individual focus while people go off and do their thing, they come together periodically at Christmas or Thanksgiving or birthdays or whatever it is in your family where you don't use the word celebrate, but that's essentially what you're doing is you're celebrating your family and your family values and so forth and the fact that you love each other.

Porter: 39:46

And so would you say then, that those rituals are what become family traditions. Yeah, that's another word for them. Oh, I see Okay.

Tom Hubler: 39:56

I assume, like your family, has got a series of traditions or rituals or whatever that they've been practicing and one of the things that has to happen as the family gets older and people get married and so forth, they have to change and evolve those rituals to keep up with the current state of affairs in terms of what's going on in the family.

Porter: 40:14

Well, maybe, like you, can only invite your parents to Thanksgiving dinner as long as they're alive. Right, there's that extreme Right, but the practice doesn't change.

Tom Hubler: 40:23

But what happens when your parents die?

Porter: 40:25

In terms of what Does it continue?

Tom Hubler: 40:27

Your Thanksgiving. That's one of the challenges in families is that the rituals or the traditions are built around the parents, and when the parents die, what do the four adult children do? They have to create a new system, a new ritual or a new tradition that will be in keeping with the current state of affairs. So now there are four families and they've also got other families because they got married, and so there's essentially eight families that we've got eight adult children. We've got eight families involved, and how are we going to maintain our Thanksgiving get together?

Porter: 40:59

Yeah, I think a lot of that tends to be more, at least in the States, from my experience, and insight tends to fall more towards the oldest child and then the second oldest child after they pass, and so on to get a more decentralized process.

Tom Hubler: 41:14

That's the system for your family.

Porter: 41:16

Yeah, okay. So then, as sort of a decentralized example or some sort of I guess it'd be, what would you call it a distributed type example? If each of those four children were to have four separate Thanksgiving dinners with their own respective immediate families and maintain the tradition where it's just a video call among all four, especially now, say, for example, after the parents die? That'd be more of a, I guess, a separate example, but the same in principle, right.

Tom Hubler: 41:41

Yeah, that's what they've decided to do to maintain their connectivity.

Porter: 41:45

Yeah, that's an important distinction too, right? What's the expression tomato tomorrow? Right, everybody's got some sort of a different view and they're all sort of equitable in their own right. Tom, I really appreciate the opportunity. Man, for the sake of time, I don't want to dive into a new topic and then get carried away for an hour, because I really have a feeling we could. But for anybody listening that wants to find out more about books that you've written, speeches you've given, topics you're discussing, get in touch with you, even for your consulting services, how do people reach out to you? How do they find you or get in touch?

Tom Hubler: 42:21

The book I wrote is called the Soul of Family Business a practical guide to the family business, success and a loving family and so that's available on Amazon and people can get that and read it and so forth. I'm also available. I have a website, huber Family Business Consultants, and they can go there, or tomhublercom, and then you can just reach out to me. My email address is tomhublercom and I'm available to respond to questions. In my book and there's all kinds of articles on my website that I've written, there's about 60 articles that I've written on my website that are available for you to download if you're interested.

Porter: 43:02

Perfect and for everybody listening links to Tom's book the Soul of Family Business, and to both of those websites. Plus, if there's any social links on the websites, I'll pull those as well. But depending on which streaming platform you're listening to this conversation, and even from our website, you can click see more or show more in the description and you'll be able to find those links and it'll take you straight away to Tom's material. But, tom, I appreciate the opportunity, man, your perspective, your insight, even the time that you're willing to sit here and spend and talk through some of these things with us, taking some time away from your family. But I appreciate the opportunity. So thank you for having me.

Tom Hubler: 43:36

I really appreciate the opportunity to share my perspective and it's been a joy to talk with you and to hear your perspective.

Porter: 43:42

Because, honestly.

Tom Hubler: 43:43

That helps me understand who I am listening to you and hear your perspective. So thank you.

Porter: 43:48

Yeah, I hope it helps, Not for the sake of my own but for the sake of these conversations as a whole, as this podcast evolves and develops and people find more of these conversations and listen to them. I mean, ultimately, that's the point right how to deepen interpersonal relationships and learn more about yourself. I think also helps with a sense of belonging and a little bit of I don't know safety and security going through life as well, just sort of growing through it together as a human race. So, yeah, it's a cool opportunity. I appreciate you saying that, but again, for the sake of time for everybody listening, thank you for tuning in and listening to our November core values of gratitude, appreciation and resilience, obviously also for our last mini series of this season, inherent value. And I'd like to thank a little bit more indirectly, I suppose, that Bishop when Tom was young, st Paul's Cathedral, the St Cloud Children's Home, jonathan Hyden, that righteous mind book, all of these other inspirations, tom, that you've had throughout your life and obviously throughout this process of growing your own family, because without those inspirations this conversation would not have been as exciting or insightful as it was and it's given you the experience to share with other people. So I appreciate all of those sacrifices and decisions you've made along the way. Also, you're welcome. Thank you to our show partners and folks. Thank you for tuning in and appreciating our value as we all grow through life together To check out our other conversations, merchandise or even to contribute through feedback, follows time, money or talent and let us know what you think of the show. Please reach out on our website, transactingvaluepodcastcom. We stream new episodes every Monday at 9 am Eastern Standard Time through all of your favorite podcasting platforms and we'll meet you there Until next time. That was Transacting Value.