Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 0:05

Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for personal values when dealing with each other and even within ourselves. Where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries and finding belonging. My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are your people. This is why values still hold value. This is Transacting Value.

Ann Leach: 0:33

Once we have clarity and the maturity of what we don't want, then we can start to flip the switch toward what we do want.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 0:43

Welcome to Transacting Value. Today, we conflicts, and have stressors, stressors in our lives. The light bulb needs to change, the drawer is broken, the kids are late and everything else in between. Do you ask for help or do you accept your circumstances? I'm Porter, I'm your host. In this particular conversation. We're talking through our February core values of play, spontaneity, and fun with Expressive Arts Coach Ann Leach. Without further ado, let's get to it. This is Transacting Value. Ann, how are you doing?

Ann Leach: 1:12

I am doing great. Happy New Year, by the way. We will be in the New Year.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 1:18

We will be. We will be. And for anybody who's new to the show, yeah, we are recording all of these and obviously it's audio only at this point. But some of our conversation currently, where we are at September, the timing may not make sense, right, but so that's why what we're talking about is our February core values, not necessarily our February place in time in the world. Yeah, so, if it seems a little hard to keep straight, that may be why. And so, saying that, welcome to the show, ann, and welcome to you. I appreciate you taking some time to come in and talk a little bit Now as we're sort of working our way through some of these topics. I think this is really important in any conversation, but especially ones where people can't see you and my audience may not know who you are and what you do. I think introductions and sort of relationship building is the important place to start in any conversation. So let's start there and take the floor for a couple of minutes. Who are you, where are you from and, to whatever degree you want to attribute this, what sort of things have shaped your perspective on life now?

Ann Leach: 2:16

Yeah, absolutely Well, again, my name is Ann. I am dialing in from Joplin, Missouri. I am an Expressive Arts Coach, which means I help people move through small business concerns and issues, as well as individual ones, with a creative flair. Now, that is said not to frighten people. We do not have to be an artist or a great musician or any type of visual arts person at all. I just incorporate the visual way of working in my work and I find that that helps people bring clarity to their own vision. They say that about 87% of us are visual learners, so I love the tactile approach to using markers and paper, simple to most that we all have available. I got into this work I was an artist wannabe and have given many volunteer hours to arts organizations in my past and found that these were some simple ways that I could kind of play in that role without having to draw a straight line or have a masterpiece painting hanging in a museum somewhere. So I love what I do. I am newly semi-retired, which is giving me a lot more time for the creative side of me, and I'm just loving life and I think that that's a place we can all get to, regardless of our age or stage of life, and it is my joy to help people discover that.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 4:05

Congratulations. I think that's a claim that, unfortunately, not many people can honestly say today that they're in something that they really enjoy and feel passionate about.

Ann Leach: 4:13

It's unfortunately very true, yes.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 4:15

Yeah, and you said primarily visual learners. I'm glad you clarified, because I was going to ask you how well drawing or using visual aids works for people that don't learn that way or don't learn as well. But I'm sure there's accompanying activities or complementary methods you're using, right, not just silent art and silent films. What?

Ann Leach: 4:37

do you think about it? That's not necessarily accurate in that even through our math classes or some of the traditional left-brain thinking activities, we're using triangles, we're using shapes in solving equations and so forth, so it's not totally foreign to us. It's just that we grow up forgetting and my role helps you remember that we came in perfectly capable doing this and using those basic shapes and how we connect them together in strategy, planning, and in problem solving. Creative thinking is still very much part of your work in your day. You just may not realize it.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 5:27

This such yeah, well, I mean, you said primarily business, but business is ultimately personal when you deal with people, or at least interpersonal. Yeah, absolutely, absolutely yes. So yeah, communicating through different methods is huge. But you said creatively interpreting problem sets or critically thinking through solutions, maybe, to those problem sets. What do you mean? Right?

Ann Leach: 5:48

Well, I'm thinking back to our at least in my world, one of the very first math problems right, if I have three apples and I eat one, how many are left Right? Well, instantly in our brain we can see the picture of three apples on the table and when we take one away, I'm eating it, I'm crunching into it, I'm enjoying it. That is a visual problem solving technique that we automatically can recall.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 6:22

Right, I see, I see. So we're talking like, I guess, in a manner of speaking, mnemonic devices, right, like the guys that count cards or the guys that do, for example, competitive card counting. They're talking about keeping track of the suits and the numbers based on a visual aid. They've got in their head Something similar.

Ann Leach: 6:37

Yeah, there you go yeah.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 6:38

Okay, I mean you don't strike me as an avid gambler, but there's all sorts of applications, yeah, yeah, all right. So a lot of what we're talking about for anybody new to the show in the context of our conversation, ann and I is essentially revolving around boundaries and processing through critical thought and problem solving and how to work in interpersonal relationships. And what does that even have to do, in this case, with play and spontaneity? And how can you do both? And how can you be somebody that fits into society or feels like you should fit differently into society and still be able to authentically represent yourself and be creative and be more comfortable with you? And I think there's a lot of those things that we could talk about in isolation, probably for hours each. But at least in my opinion, one of the things that unites all of those topics is you've really got to have a sense of who you are and an awareness of what you bring to the table right, because you really can't move past it. I mean, in your years of experience, am I off the mark?

Ann Leach: 7:39

You're absolutely on target, because we have a society created the boundaries, the boxes and the rules that we're involved abide by a , and obviously we need those, right, that's how we learn structure and our creativity, actually. But as we progress in life we start to open up to the possibility of a different way, and those that are encouraged in that are the ones who often become leaders. Right, they're looking for a way to work with the whole team team and to communicate the need and the desire, and finding the way that each person learns on the team is part of the plan and that job. Sure, I like to say, become more curious rather than certain that your way is the even big way.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 8:39

I like that, I like that. And then having a sense of the boundaries that you brought up. You know, I think from an early age and I'm not a doctor, therapist, psychiatrist or any otherist for that matter but in my life experience, I think when we're young, when we're kids, even teenagers to a point, we're still just imitating what we see and feeling out what we prefer to do, with those repercussions of having done what we've seen, but let's just say our parents, I guess in an immediate sense, and any other adult in our lives growing up. That puts these boundaries in our perspective. I think it's just meant to give us a starting point to process from, because there are so many inputs and so much influence we could pull from anywhere else. And so when you're working I mean you said, primarily in a business capacity, but you know, when you're working with clients or throughout your life, working with anybody else, how do you recommend making that transition, making that shift from sort of taking the parameters that we're given or told about or taught or something, and then being a bit more critical to yeah, but how do I view this? What is me in this moment? What is what? Did you call it? The creative side of me. How am I interpreting this problem? So how do you make that shift or transition?

Ann Leach: 9:56

I actually start with a very simple question that comes from over 40 years of work created by best-selling author and former minister, Mary Morrissey, who has a program called Dream Building, and it starts very simply with the question what would you really love? And as soon as I ask that client that question, their response is I don't know. I just know that I don't want to, and they fill in the blank from there, which is actually very positive right. Once we have clarity and surety of what we don't want, then we can start to flip the switch toward what we do want. So if I don't want to be stressed out in my life and my work, obviously I would like to have more peace and order, calm in my life. That's great. So the essence of us really does know what we want. Sometimes we're just fearful of other people's opinions or we've been told through our life that good luck with that, that'll never happen, and so those dreams kind of get buried, and so my job is to help you excavate that desire again and create the practical steps toward having it happen.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 11:25

Yeah, it's kind of weird when you think about it. Or well, I don't know not to speak for you it's weird when I think about it. I guess that there's such a reliance on these negative perspectives that we, as just people, have a tendency to start with right, well, I don't want this, I don't want that, I don't want to be like, I don't want to turn out whatever. To more clearly refine, if you're paying attention, what you do want, right, because sometimes it stops there. You're like, well, I don't want that. Yeah, well, what do you do want? I don't know, I never thought about it. I don't want it anymore than, well, I don't want this. What do you do want? I do want these things, right? I think it's more common to have a dead-ended assessment for ourselves, and so I'm curious. This is a segment of the show called Developing Character. So, for anybody new and as a refresher, this is two questions totally from your perspective, as vulnerable as you want to be, and it's about your value system. And here's why, before I ask the first question, In my experience and in my opinion so far in life, the values are the things that sort of refine and hone our perspective and our character and our ability to make decisions, and so we can't, I think, really get too much further beyond how you make decisions and based on which factors, without identifying what are some of the values that you align with and that may help sort of put these boundaries on processing some of this complexity. So, and my first question is as you were growing up attribute that to whatever ages you like what are some values that you were exposed to or that you tended to align yourself with?

Ann Leach: 12:56

I grew up as an only child and my dad died when I was eight years old, so for many years it was just my mother and me and my grandparents, and I still consider myself to have had a wonderful childhood. But it was my dad who, even in those early years, I still have memories of the lessons that he wanted to instill in me, and that included creativity. He was the public relations director for our local phone company conglomerate back in Illinois, and so he was constantly creating presentations and back then the flyers, with you two young for this. But we had rub on letters that we had to line up to make headlines and so forth, and he would teach me those things because he wanted my school reports to be different than any other child, and so I couldn't just get away with the simple book report. I had to make a copy of the book cover, I had to add colored pencils to it. I mean that I think of him daily in these creative pursuits that I'm undertaking. Also, kindness you know, and I grew up in a time when this was in Virginia. He was from Virginia, so I started my life out there, and then we moved to Illinois to be with my mother's side of the family after Dad died, but this was a time when prejudice was really very extreme and despite that, both of my parents encouraged me to be kind to all people, and I look back on that now and think, really that was an innovative thought back then, and so, yes, kindness, creativity and appreciation for family. Certainly, during his illness, we saw our immediate family come in to help. That was also a time when children were not allowed in the hospital rooms, so I would have to wait in the lobby while my mom went to see my dad and having those elders around me babysitting me but still comforting me. Although I don't have much family left, I've created my own version of family, and so that support system has been another important lesson for me.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 15:40

Well, that's sort of a complexity too, isn't it? Or an added complexity, I guess, to the problem of not having as much of a support network that you were comfortable with more presently. Yes, Right, and then finding ways to plug the holes, so to speak, and make a better place for yourself yeah, All right. Before I get ahead of myself, let me ask you this second question. I'm gonna just write a couple of these down and I'm gonna let you flow for a second. So my second question is then having gone through your life to this point and all the experiences you've had, if anything's changed, what are some of your values now?

Ann Leach: 16:11

I do this exercise at the beginning of every year and it's amazing how consistently my values stay. But I also work with my clients in the same exercise and encourage them to recognize that as we age and grow, we are in different stages of our work and life experience, and so it's natural that our values will shift and mold to where we are today. But for me obviously we've talked about it a lot already creativity, peace and order go together for me. I survived our 2011 tornado here in Joplin, Missouri, and I just learned a whole different way of looking at personal sanctuary and creating peace in the midst of chaos, and so that's kind of a non-negotiable for me. I maintain peace as much as possible, and so peace and order. Creativity I also put a high value on kindness, on acceptance of others, and as I create this values list each year, my spirit itself is very important to me abundance, thinking not just monetarily, but seeing the good all around us. As I look at this list, then, each time I'm asked to take on a new project, get involved in a new relationship, volunteer for another organization, I can kind of use this list of my values as a checklist, if you will. Would my saying yes to this opportunity help align me even closer to what I value, and if it's a no, it's a no. If it's a yes, then I go through the next stage of looking at what's my time commitment. What are they really asking for and how willing am I to go 100% in, or is there space there to negotiate?

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 18:22

But you're coming up with these things on your own. I mean, I keep saying boundaries just because I don't know a better word, but these parameters right for your decisions on your own. So I guess you could say taking an active role in your own growth.

Ann Leach: 18:34

but it's our life. We have to we take on 100% responsibility.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 18:40

All right, folks, stay tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value. Alrighty, folks, here at Transacting Value, we write and produce all the material for our podcast in-house game perspective alongside you, our listeners, and exchange vulnerability and dialogue with our contributors every Monday morning. But for distribution, buzzsprout's a platform to use. You want to know how popular you are in Europe or how Apple is a preferred platform to stream your interviews? Buzzsprout can do that. You want to stream on multiple players through an RSS or custom feed, or even have references and resources to take your podcast's professionalism, authenticity and presence to a wider audience. Buzzsprout can do that too. Here's how. Start with some gear that you already have in a quiet space. If you want to upgrade, buzzsprout has tons of guides to help you find the right equipment at the right price. Buzzsprout gets your show listed in every major podcast platform. You'll get a great looking podcast website, audio players that you can drop into other websites, detailed analytics to see how people are listening, tools to promote your episodes and more. Podcasting isn't hard when you have the right partners. The team at Buzzsprout is passionate about helping you succeed. Join over 100,000 podcasters already using Buzzsprout to get their message out to the world Plus. Following the link in the show notes, lets Buzzsprout know we sent you, gets you a $20 credit if you sign up for a paid plan and helps support our show. You want more value for your values. Buzzsprout can do that too.

Ann Leach: 20:07

It's our life. We have to, we have to take 100% responsibility. I am able to respond.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 20:15

Sure able to. But I disagree that everybody does, and I think sometimes it's easy to sort of like. So for me, for example, I had oh man, well, I don't know 25 years of my life, I guess, where I just sort of jellyfish through it, which may be normal, I don't know, I've only done it once. But the agency that I was taking or the criticality I was putting, more intentionality, even that I was putting into my decisions, didn't exist. It just wasn't there. I was just. These are the immediate short-term options. These are the immediate short-term gains, benefits and risks. And I'm going to do this. Or, more specific, since I enlisted, I was just told right, and so, outside of a war zone or humanitarian mission or wherever I may have been, on deployments, I really didn't have to think for myself, and even when I did, on some of those deployments the parameters were built for me. They said, hey, here's, we call them lateral limits for certain terms on a rifle range or whatever. But these are the lateral limits for you to make your decision. You can do, relatively speaking, whatever you want within there, but that's what aligns with the intent of the commander in that immediate environment. So even my parameters were built and I found that identifying options at least in my case, identifying options hasn't been the difficulty Identifying parameters and boundaries has. So is that me saying no? Is that me making conscious decisions? Is that me setting goals? Is it any of these things? I just it wasn't a skill set that I really even consciously developed until I was almost 30. I mean, of all the things that you've done and dealt with, you said you were just saying some of these you figured out at eight, you know. So how do you, how do you foster this for people? Because it's a varying degree of when it takes effect, if at all.

Ann Leach: 21:57

We have in the coaching industry. There's a exercise where you are asked to write down all the things that you tolerate in the day, the things that irritate you. So being cut off in traffic by a jerk who's you know driving too fast, or whatever. This button that's been on my dresser for two months that I need to sew onto my pants yeah, I mean it'll only take five minutes, but it's going to hassle. I've got to go find the needle and thread. I've got to. You know, make sure the pants are clean so I can get. Anyway, all of these little daily irritations. You write those down and it's estimated that we put up with between 60 and 75 things a day. No way, that's the suit A day. Okay, yeah, yeah, so your teenagers music is too loud at night, All of these things you just look at, okay, what is it that's really bugging me today? And then, after you make that list, you go back and you circle things that you have control over. Okay, do I really have control over the guy who's cut me off in traffic. Do I really have control over my teenagers' music all out at night? Well, yeah, we could have a pretty serious conversation about that, right? So you start looking at what is yours to do. But even on those things that you feel you've have no control over, the reality is you, do you have control over your response and how much you let it get to you. So in a military situation, in a healthcare situation, I think of the ER docs they have no idea what's coming through those doors on their shift right. But getting in line with your purpose for being there and setting that intention helps to shift the mindset, to be able to adjust to the reporting plate. So you do have more control and responsibility than a givers' tip for it.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 24:16

Okay, all right, fair. So also there's a lot of things that I think, when it comes to values like you just mentioned mindset, but you also mentioned sort of spiritually fulfilling earlier in the conversation and I think when it comes to values or value systems or character, a lot of the things that get attributed to for any degree of connotation, spirituality, let's call it, and our spiritual health means religion and faith, and I don't know, that's probably about it. And so when you said mindset, I think mental well-being has direct impact and implication on our physical well-being. Spiritual well-being may take a couple indirect steps for a lot of people to put the pieces together. And so when you're trying to use expression of any kind, let's say visually, since that's more your medium to communicate, here's how you can shift your mindset and here's the direct implication and effect, positive effect it can have on your life. Like values don't pay the bills, that's a fact, they don't. But your reliance on them to make decisions, to make your mind up about a certain stressor, to then do something about it. It's an indirect sort of path. But mindset, how do you tie that to? Here's a direct benefit or here's why perspective matters. How do you explain that to people visually?

Ann Leach: 25:39

Well, visually we will do a map. For example, I often use the staircase model, the stepping stone model, that kind of thing where you look at okay, a decision was made, we have data, we've got facts and evidence of what happened from, yeah, a decision that you made, and so then we'll draw that out using icons that you actually come up with.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 26:09

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Ann Leach: 26:58

And so then we'll draw that out using icons that you actually come up with.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 27:05

You mean like graphics or pictures.

Ann Leach: 27:07

Yeah, yeah. So again my example of the math equation three apples. You take one away. Again, we know we can see the visual of the apples. So once I help you identify what those icons might be for you, then we can press through the experience that you're having and it's kind of like a mind map, right when it can branch off. Okay, so we've made this decision, what's the worst that could happen? What could happen now, and how can we merge those together so that you're prepared? And then to set that up, the conversation I use, the greatest story of it was like four lines in his book. rom Jack Camfield, the co-author books. He wrote a book independently called Success Principles and he has a chapter in there for sales people and it was on rejection. And he said if you, in other words, talk about mindset, his point is you can't let the numbers get you down. It is a numbers game. We have to go out and hustle and make your calls, et cetera, but when the rejection comes in, let's refrain that. And his example was the pimply faced high school boy who's so enthusiastic about life and he has a crush on on the lead cheerleader and he gets up his nerve. Oh my gosh, it took forever, but he gets up his nerve to ask her on the date and thank goodness, her parents raised her right, raised her to be kind and thoughtful, and she very nicely declined his invitation. Camfield's explanation there is to take a stamp of the fact that there's no such thing as rejection. He didn't have a date with her before he asked. He doesn't have a date with her now. Nothing really changed in the situation, except it was the emotional attachment to an outcome that produced the disappointment or the shame or the sadness. Right, and so I love that story for that example. The human part of us doesn't always want to make that leap right. We feel the feelings, it hurts. She said, no, I'm a loser, I'll never get a date with anybody now, or whatever. Thinking could be right. But then being willing to explore that and to do this mind math of OK. So she didn't say yes, is there anyone else in your circle that might be hoping you'd ask them that you just haven't thought of yet. And then we began to follow those branches of possibility.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 30:08

Well, that helps too, I think, to manage our own expectations right. I mean, you mentioned, obviously, creating channels to communicate in ways other people can understand right, like I'm a food guy, my son's nine and often when we talk on a video call because we're long distance, we talk about his math homework, if he has it right, but we'll talk about his math homework, and so I usually I know pies that go to, and if you're a pie person I'm sorry if you're listening to this and you're a pie person hey, you know, don't take it personally, but I'm a pizza guy, so I use pizza and he's doing fractions and decimals and so I, you know, draw pictures of pizza or I just make pizza and eat it as we go. It depends. But he understands visually what's happening, but if, for whatever reason, our videos aren't working and it's just an audio call, he's gone, it's not going to work out right, and so he. I think he's becoming the kind of person where if you show him how to do something once and then work with him a second time, he's good after that. But he's got to see it and he has to do it. He's at this point where he's sort of feeling out how to create on his own, and I don't mean drawing pictures necessarily and coming up with things, but you know to interpret these inputs you're describing, and so there's sometimes where he just gets really hard on himself and he just gets down about it. And to the point you brought up with the cheerleader story, I think that there's times where it's not just kids, and I don't even really think it's a phased thing. I think that's sort of the human condition, no matter our age, like you said. That's the tendency, right, and so to think through. Well, like you said in that example, okay, but what have you really lost? Sure, the flip side being nobody is judging you. Most people don't even know you exist. So I mean that can be a detriment to some people also. But you know, the more positive light on that is nobody probably is judging you as harshly as you are or you think they are. You know to take it into account. I've gotten a fair amount of comments on the show over the last year and a half and they're not all positive, but that's fine, right.

Ann Leach: 32:18

Whatever effort right.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 32:20

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Ann Leach: 34:20

Anywhere from the 30-year-olds on up.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 34:24

Oh, okay, perfect. So for everybody essentially in adulthood, like you can rent a car without paying extra, you can think for yourself that kind of adulthood. Then, for everybody that you've worked with, that sort of fits, that mold, I guess that'd be what millennials and Gen X and boomers now I suppose, as you're talking to all these different types of people, I'm sure you've seen enough generational shifts to have to try to come up with different ways to explain the exact same thing to three different people in the same room. Thank you. And this case? This is a podcast, so potentially eventually or now, there's going to be thousands, hundreds of thousands, millions of people over the life of this podcast that are going to hear this conversation. If you had to try to summarize the benefit to creative interpretation or critical thought of a problem and process to develop an outcome, how would you sum up that in a few sentences?

Ann Leach: 35:20

This allows us to get where we want to be in a quicker and more fulfilling way. It's a funny thing when we give ourselves permission not so much me as the outside coach giving you permission but when you finally recognize that you can do that for yourself, everything shifts and it is a risk. I recognize that. I know that's not the norm, but I over the years had enough of success stories where I can assure you that if you're willing to do the work and that's making willing and you truly want the change, it is possible. It is possible. It's not easy, but it's possible.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 36:14

And it may take different lengths of time for different people.

Ann Leach: 36:17

Absolutely the biggest thing. Getting to that permission slit is a quick example. I had a client just a couple of weeks ago. I had given her a homework assignment of doing a timeline of the decades of her life, the good and bad events and the next time we got together she pretty much cursed me and said I hated doing that. Oh, it brought up so much stuff for me and I see that I wasted my life doing X, y, z, whatever. And she said and then I was really angry at you for doing it, making me do it. And so my first question was why didn't you just tell me it was uncomfortable and you didn't want to do it? You know, I mean, we do have that ability. We can negotiate, we can respond or we can ask for help. I hated doing it. Can you help me figure out why I was so resistant? But until we give ourselves permission, who am I? She paid me. I mean, I know she felt that I had some authority over her, but don't put yourself through it. It's that uncomfortable. Maybe that was the lesson. But yeah, I made some mistakes and now I want to do it differently, and that's all I needed to get from that opportunity.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 37:40

Did you, or did you bring that up before you assigned that activity, like hey, here's what we're going to try to accomplish out of this, or did you just let it go for the sake of impact and then see where it went?

Ann Leach: 37:52

No, when I do that, I toss it out and I tell clients in our first meeting. You have a choice here, right? I can ask you to do something and you can say that doesn't feel good to me. You can say I'll try it for two weeks and let's revisit it, or you can just say I'm 100% in.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 38:14

Well, that's the smart way to do it, at least unless you're nine years old, and then you're going to do what you're told. So, buddy, if you ever hear this, you could think for yourself when you're a teenager. For right now, you got to learn the ropes and I really appreciate this conversation, this opportunity. It was super lighthearted. It was, despite some depth of these topics and the seriousness to some degree of them. So, to whatever it counts, not for the sake of validation, just my opinion, I think you did a great job adding some levity to these things and finding some ways to balance it. It was good. I really enjoyed the opportunity. So, thank you, appreciate that. Yeah, yeah, I enjoyed this conversation. But saying that if anybody wants to get in touch with you, reach out to you, follow along with any materials that you've referenced, you know, success principles or anything else, how do people get in touch? How do they find out more?

Ann Leach: 39:02

Yes, I would love that. You can just reach out to me via email. ann@annleach. com just annleach. com, or you can sign up. I do have a free newsletter and it's very irregular. I don't spam you at all. You can sign up to that at my website as well, just annleach. com.

Joshua "Porter" Porthouse: 39:22

Perfect. And for everybody who's just tuning in, if you're unfamiliar with how this works, those are also going to be listed in the show notes for this conversation. So, depending on the streaming platform you're using, click, see more. Click show more to see the description of this conversation, and in there you'll see the links for Ann's website as well and you'll be able to reach out. And again, super cool conversation, awesome opportunity. I really appreciate it. Thank you to our show partners and folks. Thank you for tuning in and appreciating our value as we all grow through life together, To check out our other conversations, merchandise or even to contribute through feedback, follows, time, money or talent, and let us know what you think of the show. Please reach out on our website, transactingvaluepodcast. com. We stream new episodes every Monday at 9am Eastern Standard Time through all of your favorite podcasting platforms and we'll meet you there. Until next time, that was Transacting Value.