For me, it isn't really about finding what's next. It's not about finding the right industry.

 

It's not even finding about what I'm passionate about. It's like what can I do with my skills and my interests? To make either the world better, my community better, the country better, what is it that I can do to help?

 

And that's what, that's been my guiding star, you know, because I've got various skills and tools. And so, you know, what should I be using those for? Alrighty, folks.

 

Well, back to transacting value where we're encouraging dialogue from different perspectives to unite over shared values. Our theme for 20 22 is the character of your character. So who you see when you look your values in the mirror?

 

Today, we're talking our October core values of vision, authenticity, and responsibility with mister Mark Havener, host of not another business podcast. Now if you're new to the podcast, welcome.

 

And if you're a continuing listener, then welcome back. Without further ado, folks on Porter, I'm your host, and this is transacting value. Alright, Mark. How you doing, man? I'm doing very well.

 

Very well rested, ready for the week ahead. You know, that's that's more than some of us can say. It is a Sunday, so I'm gonna need you to relax a little bit. You call me in the middle of furniture building, so this is a nice segue.

 

Furniture building. What do you build? Yes. Oh, you know, the the stuff you get from Amazon to replace the fixture in your kitchen. I see. That's what I'm building with the, you know, Alan wrench, curious, pets, the whole thing.

 

Yeah. Yeah. I I understand that. That's definitely not the top of my favorite things to do list. First of all, I do appreciate you coming on to the show and talking a little bit, you know.

 

Values based conversation isn't really the highlight of family dinners. Neither is character development in any real circle of friends. But I appreciate it.

 

So thank you. Absolutely. And I I love the the vision of this podcast and it's really exciting to talk about this especially in the business world, not enough people are talking about this. Dude, there's so many changes now happening.

 

And we say business world, but for the sake of our listeners here, what we're what what we're talking about is any real business industry, any sort of corporate environment, any sort of entrepreneurial endeavor, any sort of formalized or or professional conversation for the enhancement of industry.

 

Right? And maybe even in some classrooms and schools along the way, but but business oriented. So we're talking marketing, sales, growth, human resources.

 

That's the angle you're you're describing. Right, Mark? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. So before we get into any of that stuff, I think it's also important that everybody has a better idea who they're listening to.

 

I think they get used to my voice a little bit in in whatever my story is. What they may not be familiar with is yours.

 

So I'd like to start there. Who are you, Mark? But that's the question we ask ourselves every day. But if I had you to summarize, I am an executive leadership marketing communications consultant.

 

And what that means is that I make a practice out of helping business leaders and organizations communicate to their public. And that takes the form of everything from public relations to content and everything in between.

 

I come from an agency background where I was an executive for a number of years, and I started my own practice, so I'm also an entrepreneur trying to find my my way in this new uncertain world.

 

Yeah. That's it in a nutshell, at least on the professional side. Yeah. Of course. Of course. Now what we're talking about some sort of finding your way type journey and ovid style metamorphosis becoming the butterfly you wanna be.

 

Or I guess that was a moth in his case. But either way, the point being how do you start to identify which direction to go?

 

Like in your case, in your experience, how do you identify that? Do you look at Here's the emerging tech in the industries, and let me just pursue that. Here's what's popular.

 

Let me go that way. Here's what I'm passionate about. Let me go that way. How do you narrow it down? Because you gotta start somewhere. Yeah. At at least for me, it was an exercise of understanding what is important to me.

 

And that transcends things like money, stability, or even passions. I mean, there's a lot of things that I do that are passionate that don't necessarily yield the profits that I need to to survive in this world.

 

But I think that having a greater sense of purpose about the world you live in, and it doesn't need to even be altruistic.

 

I'm not saying necessarily that everybody needs to drop everything and join some movement or nonprofit or whatever, but what I'm doing must have some sort of positive effect on the industry that I'm serving or the world.

 

And so for me, it isn't really about finding what's next. It's not about finding the right industry.

 

It's not even finding about what impassioned about is what can I do with my skills and my interests to make either the world better, my community better, the country better, what is it that I can do to help?

 

That's been my guiding star, you know. And because I've got various skills and tools and so, you know, what should I be using those for?

 

I think that's what everybody eventually runs into, assuming they've realized you know, here's what I have to offer and what I can bring to the table. The next step is oh, so what? You know, what can I do about it?

 

How can I use it? Can it be beneficial? And and having that sort of vision definitely makes things a little bit simpler or at least a little bit more clear. But I I don't think it really mitigates the complexity.

 

Right? There's a lot of changes. I mean, look look at it now. There's this sort of hybrid industrial revolution of facts and figures and applications and almost even intrinsic value to to what's happening in a business world now.

 

You know, in the eighties, it was computers and within the next 20 years, it was the Internet.

 

Now within the next 20 years, it's web 3 and it's crypto in this sort of I guess we'll call it democratization of the Internet. Right? It's it's like the next generation of business.

 

Is that influencing you at all? Is that even the direction you're considering? I think the 1 thing we can be certain about is that there will be uncertainty probably for an indefinite period of time.

 

And so the 1 thing that's driving me is that it cannot use legacy tools for today's problems or legacy approaches for today's problems.

 

So I think that the posture really needs to be about sort of a dynamic posture that ebbs and flows based on what's happening with all of the change in the world.

 

To have that dynamic posture, though you need some sort of structure and grounding.

 

And for me, that's a purpose. Why are you doing things? What you're gonna be doing is going to change dramatic no matter what. I mean, you said the next generation is democratization of Internet.

 

I don't know. What if that's not the case, what if it gets democratized, and then see by other, you know, profit seeking companies or, you know, who knows what's going to happen?

 

What if there is no internet? We really just don't know. Things are changing so rapidly. That you have to find some grounding, and that grounding has gotta be on what you're doing, and why that's important.

 

And this was an aha moment. The big reason I left the agency was because agencies in general by words with a communications and marketing integrated agency.

 

So we did all kinds of different work But agencies in general are using tools as if it's 20 12 or 20 15, and they're just not working anymore.

 

And agencies need to be more flexible in addressing the world's problems because if they're not, they're gonna get sunk.

 

1 of the byproducts of this recent resurgence of information is that the consumer, the audience, whoever it is that we're talking to, they have the access to the sum total of all human knowledge at their fingertips.

 

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And so what is it that they're going to do to decide who to listen to? They're not going to listen to people that don't share values, and they're not going to listen to people that don't have any purpose or that are inauthentic.

 

And so having that grounding and what it is I'm doing and why is more important than what industry am I in, what tools am I using, what business do I need to build because all of that comes later, and that's gonna change by the week in the coming years.

 

Yeah. I agree. And I think there's a lot of that focus that we're hearing more and more about on the Internet, reading in blogs, seeing even in video games.

 

You know, Roblox or whatever other RPGs are out there, it's happening. You know what I mean? On YouTube, shorts or whatever social media applies, people are taking more of a vested interest.

 

At the very least in pop culture, and it's permeating and it's scalable and it's influencing over the last 15 years, it's been growing, but the fact is that it is growing.

 

And I agree with you to what end I'm not entirely sure, but it is either way. So you mentioned essentially a values based mindset and authenticity sort of carrying these actions, carrying this influence.

 

But do you find that to be more self driven? Or people driven? I find that it is more people driven. I mean, I believe that it is important for individuals to have personal values and to personally better themselves, their environment.

 

We're humans, we have to do that. But when it comes to purpose, it really is an external exercise. You're looking at what is it around me that I can affect for the better. And again, it's not altruistic necessarily.

 

And when I go back to the word humans, humans are naturally pack animals. And I think in modern society, we we look internal almost too much. Satiate desires and needs that we have, and we're not looking out for the pack as much.

 

And I think that pack mentality is our natural state, and so it is important to lean into that and see what is it can I do to help the community in some way?

 

In my case, it's pretty simple. I'm just helping business leaders with vision get out of their own way so that they can have their vision seen and their message heard.

 

And so that automatically puts me in a position where I'm picking and choosing the people I work with, because I'm not gonna work with somebody that doesn't have a vision.

 

Because it's not gonna work for my model. My model only works if you have an authentic vision, something you're trying to do in the world. So yeah.

 

I mean, I think that's where we our heads have to be because when you're doing it that way, people who share those brilliant visions or even if they don't share the vision, they share the the desire for the outcome you're after.

 

They naturally get attracted to you.

 

And that means then you're not spending so much time, money, and energy trying to find your audience and get them to come to you, or trick them to you, or manipulate them to come to steadger just being who you are, your genuine self.

 

And then that shines brighter than the rest of the trash and the noise that's out there. So I think that's absolutely it's gotta be an external posture. You said helping let me get this right.

 

You said helping business leaders get out of their own way. Right? To fulfill whatever visions they have or even just ultimately create visions if they haven't yet. But helping them get out of their own way.

 

So whether it's I don't know, podcast indication and licensing or overall corporate growth or enhancing or increasing an employee base or reach or availability of a product or service. How do you advocate? How do you recommend?

 

Getting out of your own way. Is there a process? Are there steps? Is it phases? Is it just 1 cure all? What do you see? I wish there was a cure all. What I see is patterns and patterns of behavior of people in leadership positions.

 

I have an approach that I use to help business leaders get out of their own way What I mean by that is that if you are a business leader, especially if you are in a small or medium sized organization, you're really bound by the operations of the business.

 

And and so often business leaders become bottleneck to growth because they have to check everything that comes through organization, they have to have their eyes on everything, they have to control everything, and in worst case, they're micromanaging.

 

And 1 of the first faces is to kind of unshackle business leaders from their business so that they can look at their industry.

 

Because if you're fixing problems in your industry, then you're gonna fix problems in your own business as well.

 

And that means trusting your people enough to take care of the operations of the day to day of the business, and business leaders tend to do manager work.

 

And they really should have managers for that. And so, there's there's a disconnect often of the internal focused business leader.

 

If you're a COO, then yes, your focus should be internal. That's your whole job. But if you are a CEO or if you are a founder or, you know, an entrepreneur, you have to really let go of that day to day and focus on the vision.

 

Once you've done that, then it's a matter of building up what your vision is and then communicating.

 

And that's why you have to uncouple yourself because if you're in the day to day, you don't have the bandwidth, the time, or even the perspective.

 

To step out and talk to the industry about industry problems and to lead the industry towards positive change. Business leaders that we admire in our society are ones that have done that, and they become a beacon of the industry.

 

And so the industry just sort of follows along. Because that's how you innovate as you're fixing industry focused problems.

 

I think this also works for nonprofits and other organizations But in the business world, it's extremely important because at least in our society, it's money that talks and it's businesses that make change and it's business leaders that do it.

 

So as as much as we want politicians to make change, as much as we want non profits to make change, they often have to bow down at the feet of business.

 

And in our society. And so, it's important for business leaders to recognize that and to take responsibility and do the right thing within they have the tools to do it.

 

They have the influence to do it. They just need to be positioned to do it. And maybe guidance, right? Like -- Yes.

 

You know, it's it's tough to plan a direction or any sort of a process or or whatever and have any semblance of flexibility or accuracy or or whatever if you're the only 1 doing it because you you only have your perspective.

 

Right? So your role as a consultant has that been more your focus, the guide, the mentor, the advocate, or more of a managers, or from their perspective, day to day considerations? For consultancy?

 

It's a little bit of both, especially now, I'm still early in my consultancy on this level, and especially now I find myself really integrated into an organization far more than consultants usually are, or certainly any communications or marketing agency is.

 

What ends up happening is I have to integrate myself into the organization so that I can see where the processes are, who's doing them, what's going on with them, Are they aligned with goals?

 

Is the business leader equipped, prepared, and ready to move to an external posture And so it ends up happening is that I work with almost every aspect of the organization, particularly on the marketing and communication side, to make sure that they are aligned with the vision of the business leader and that they're sort of running and up on autopilot that the business leader can let go.

 

And so that sort of integrated thing, it's it's really, I think, a powerful way to do it because I essentially become a member of the team but I have a perspective that allows the team to rally rather than having to micromanage projects.

 

Already folks sit tight and we'll be right back on transacting value. There's no shortage of business podcasts with hot takes, clever insights, and tips and tricks, And here's 1 more.

 

Not another business podcast is hosted by corporate communications veteran Mark Havener, and aims to tackle marketing and PR problems for business leaders.

 

Now after 20 years in marketing and communications, many of those as an executive for an integrated agency, Marks learned firsthand what works and what doesn't.

 

Now that we're in a new era of uncertainty, it's time to rethink the old ways of doing things.

 

Tune in for industry busting insights, a distillation of marketing speak, and real world strategies and tactics you can use in your business today.

 

I essentially become a member of the team, but I have a perspective that allows the team to rally rather than having to micromanage projects.

 

I like that a lot better, personally, just as a style of of working on a team So I I can only imagine that it works well because I'm biased to it.

 

So you're talking like, what, 6 sigma type considerations, agile, and scrum, and these types of aspects is more your preferred flavor?

 

Yeah. I I definitely tinker with that mindset, but many organizations, unless your technology they're probably not used to that approach.

 

So, mostly, it's about clarity in organizing what people are doing and why, but I don't have any power in the organization.

 

So it's really about influencing change through talking to the departments, helping them with their problems, it's solving their problems, and then breaking it down for the business leaders so that they can do what they need to do.

 

But it takes time.

 

I mean, I wish this could be like a 6 month program, but that, you know, many organizations are really, really structured in their day to day, and it's hard to let go, and it's hard, there's culture that you need to take into account and nurture and there's perspectives that need to change in the executive leadership.

 

So, yeah, it's a marathon. Yeah. It definitely is. And it it takes time obviously too whether it's for the sake efficiency or effectiveness or or whatever. You know, I heard a it's a podcast called WorkLife. Have you ever heard of it?

 

I don't think so. Yeah. So there's a guy. I can't remember if he's a doctor or not. I'm I'm not sure. So, you know, if you ever hear this and you are Sorry. But Either way, his name's Adam Grant, and he's the host of Worklife.

 

And he's got an episode where he talks about some pitfall is an organizational culture, but as an organizational psychologist, what mental aspect come in to help make it more efficient or or effective or just increase awareness.

 

And 1 of the points that he brought up, I can't remember which episode it was.

 

He was talking about how Ultimately, to your point about vision, the founder has to identify as critically as possible and as clear as possible what their personal values are.

 

To better cultivate a corporate culture to better influence their growth and strategy.

 

Is there relevance to that in your experience or in your perspective if, yeah, if the founder doesn't have an idea of what they value, then the organization has no idea what it values.

 

And if that value is profit or, you know, business results, then there's no reason for a team within the organization to care. You know, unless everybody's taking part in that profit sharing.

 

And so profit is not enough of a value, you know, the sake of the business surviving is not enough. And so, yeah, I do think that the personal value of the founder does, and should feed into the organizational values.

 

I might end up on a tangent here, but 1 of the failures I see in organizations are when values are not articulated, and so if an organization, you know, steps in it online, and they're now in crisis mode because they're getting blasted by social media for something that was said or done.

 

Organizations that don't have a clear value because the founder doesn't have a clear value, end sinking in that moment because they just changed their opinion about whatever is happening.

 

It's, oh, you're right, mad Internet, I'm not going to do that, or you know whatever it is.

 

And the reality is if you have to syncly communicated your value and that has translated into the brand value, then it's much easier for you to say, I don't care what you say Internet.

 

This 2AM. Yeah. Yep. And end it. And I think you sort of need to to help control the flow of information too because it can be overwhelming now with the amount of technological influence that exists.

 

Right? Pure pressure, essentially, that exists where if you don't have some sort of corporate steadfast character or strength of personal character or whatever to stand behind.

 

I think authenticity goes far, but superficiality goes farther faster. Yes. Yeah. That's a good way to put it. Yeah. And so you you've definitely got to be careful.

 

As you know, sole proprietorship as an LLC as a corporation or whatever other entity. With any sort of digital presence, it's not gonna get undone now. Right? You brought up earlier as a hypothetical point.

 

What if we don't have the Internet as an actual response? I don't see it going anywhere personally. It's too inundated. It's too integrated right now. Enhancement maybe changes likely expansion definitely. Right?

 

Efficiencyency for sure, disappearance not likely. And so because of that, you know, we've got mean, think about it. We've got politicians in the US at least now, and I'm sure other countries as well, made decisions 40, 50 years ago.

 

That somehow ended up on whatever version of the Internet there was at the time. And now it's coming back to catch up to them when they're not even really the same people anymore.

 

Chances are high, they aren't anyways. So imagine then what we're putting or what our kids are putting or what their generation and age group and peers are putting on the Internet. What does that preclude them from 40 years from now?

 

What does that enable them to do in 20 years? You know, how does that dictate their ability to, you know, fulfill some sort of civic role or play a role in this digital democracy. I don't know. Right wrong or indifferent.

 

You know, if you've got a, for example, no judgment passed here, but as an example, you know, you've got politicians that are painting their faces black in the 19 eighties who are white that now can't run for office or lose elections.

 

Okay. Well, you know, what about people doing, I don't know, makeup videos.

 

But you're a 9 year old boy feeling 1 way now, that 35 year old you may not be able to run for president. You know, who knows where it's gonna go because of peer pressure and the ability to to forecast that?

 

So When you're talking about vision and when you're talking about organizational leadership and founder's personal values and strength of character, to me at face value that means adult.

 

But to forecast those, concepts, those constructs, how do we convey that to our kids.

 

That sense of authority and ownership and responsibility and autonomy over your identity and your personal isms and then balance it with, okay, but the reality is you've got to maybe not conform entirely but compromise a little.

 

To whatever society's morals are. How do you gauge that?

 

Do you have any insight there? I don't think it's possible to set yourself up for success now for a future you. And, you know, without getting into the philosophy of what is time anyway. Yeah, sure. Let's just look at what you can do.

 

And I think at least what I try to instill with my son who just started high school this week, you know, as some of these big issues start hitting, as long as you or your authentic self, if you are, you know, in your heart of heart, you know you are doing things consistent with what you believe in, then you never have to apologize later.

 

Even if the winds change. You know, I've certainly have done things in my time that we're, you know, when I look back, you know, like cringe and I think what was I thinking. But at the time, you know, what was I authentically mean?

 

Yeah. I think at that time, I was. And the times that I regret, I wasn't. I was conforming to something that I was not. So, yeah, there's definitely a need to balance your authentic self with society.

 

I mean, sure. Again, we're pack animals. What's good for and also the group. That's what we should be thinking about. Whenever we're making a moral ethical judgment. Yeah, you're going to have to compromise a bit for that.

 

But as long as it's in line with your personal values and what you believe to be right and wrong, and you have conviction around it, then you never have to apologize for who you are.

 

You know, that means you can't take public office, and that's what it means. Maybe the nature of public office needs to change.

 

Yeah. Or conversely, maybe it's just not for you and it doesn't. But yeah. Sure. I I agree. Sure. It it really could go either way because like you mentioned earlier, you can't accurately predict the future. Yeah.

 

Yeah, I think we, as a society, especially in this country, are really preoccupied with predicting the future with our business forecast and our everything from playing the stock market to well, even Bitcoin and digital currency is all about speculation, isn't it?

 

It's how much can I resell this for? Oh, yeah. Or you know, all the way to our extreme where we're consulting psychics and horoscopes to find our way through the day. So, you know, the present is the only thing that exists.

 

The only thing you have control over, it's the only thing you have power or you can't change the past, you can't change the future, but you can align yourself to what's important now.

 

That present thinking. I I would like to see more of that, especially in the business world. Yep. Yep. Being present in the present, actively taking a role think that's where the majority of lessons get learned.

 

That's where the majority of influence gets made. That's where the majority of impact happens. But there's a definite reliance on I I don't wanna say future speculation because a lot of the time, that's what drives vision.

 

Right? Those types of dreams converted into action, I guess. But there is a definite over reliance on crystal balls. For sure. Yeah. Before we get too much further though, let's take a break for a couple minutes.

 

We'll come back. I read something of yours where you mentioned basically essentially a 3 step approach to to bringing people together in commonalities that I wanna jump into when we get back.

 

And also, you mentioned something about what's best for you and what's best for the group as sort of a social theory aspect of game theory that I wanna jump on as well.

 

But for right now, sit tight for a minute and to everybody else, we'll be back on transacting value.

 

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Again, you can find me at the bee and the Bear creations on Facebook. I look forward to helping you create your custom item. Alrighty, folks. Welcome back to transacting values. Sitting here with Mark Havener.

 

We're talking about essentially the next generation of business. These different considerations for how to focus and center your personal values, convert them into corporate values and ensure it's people centric throughout the process.

 

Before we get in too much more of that though. Mark, welcome back, dude.

 

Thank you. Yeah. You're welcome. And all of our listeners, obviously, welcome back as well. Now where we left off, Mark, you said something that sorta triggered me, I guess. And you you took me back to a time and place.

 

I'll call it 19 sixties Yale, I think it was. But doctor John Nash, was a mathematics teacher, and for anybody listening if you're playing the home game, this is Russell Crow from a beautiful mind.

 

But but while he was there, he discovered this aspect of game theory when the scene in the bar, when he and his buddies were out trying to figure out who gets the blonde, I think, was this the setting.

 

But you mentioned, Mark, you know, you've gotta be authentic to yourself while balancing out figuring well, balancing and figuring out what's best for you and what's best for everybody because we're pack animals and by nature.

 

And that's instantly where my mind went.

 

You've seen a beautiful mind? Definitely. In fact, that movie is sort of what changed my thinking about this. And I think we might get into this a little later, but especially when I was younger, I was very individual focused.

 

And and I really only thought about what I wanted and could care less about society. I mean, I'm Genex, so, I mean, I don't think that's unusual to rage against the machine.

 

But as I got older, I mean, when I saw that movie, it kinda jogged me a bit. And and then I started looking into John Nash and Game Theory, and it definitely started seeing things in a different way.

 

Yeah. And and it's crazy when you think about it because it's not that foreign of a concept. It's just something you don't necessarily think about. Why? At least until he publicized it, I guess? Yeah. It is pretty interesting.

 

Now more to that point, something else you you had brought on basically in building relevant or maintaining it, I suppose, especially in the future concerning business models that, you know, you've got to identify clients and customers that have I don't know, positions or or visions that almost mirror or mimic your corporate values in terms of forecasting and future looking to be able to market, you know, know your audience.

 

I guess, it's no real difference than a podcast. But I think you and I discussed before, you've got sort of a 3 step approach to that building that relevance.

 

Can you dive into that a little bit? Yeah. It's only 3 steps, but it can take a very long time, which it was a quicker process. But the the first step is to align the organization around what I would call a vision platform.

 

This is a new in communications, but what is, I think, a little different given the times is that this vision platform needs to be bigger than only internal things.

 

Has to be bigger than profit. It has to be bigger than growth. It has to be bigger than a lot of the business metrics we're used to. And that vision platform often resides within the personal vision of the business leader.

 

And once that's built out, then we align the organization around that. And that means if it doesn't fit this vision platform, we should not be doing it.

 

If you are a member of the team and this is not a vision you share, you should not be working for this organization. If you are a member of the team and this is a vision you share, then, you know, you should be excited about it.

 

And that sort of resets the clock in a way to make sure everybody's aligned around the same vision. Now, the vision can change, and it will, over time, but that initial alignment is what solidifies culture.

 

And culture is paramount, especially in this business environment, where the team is telling the business leaders where they want the culture to be.

 

And so the best way to solve that problem with a great resignation is to make sure you are clear about what this organization is about and why.

 

And then they can decide whether this is a place for them without having to play these games of clocking in, clocking out micro management, and all the things that go in corporate culture. Sure. Step 1.

 

Step 2 is then to communicate that vision, which sounds simple, you know, and obvious, but it often doesn't happen because we get so wrapped up in our marketing messages that we'd like to talk about all of the features of our product or all of the features of our services, why that might benefit you, and then we stop there.

 

And that's how everybody talks. Why is this important, though? Why is this important?

 

And I have an example I like to use. I'm a big coffee fanatic, and I actually subscribe to coffee I'm 1 of those, but I also have folgers, right? And when you look at stay folgers versus lookalome, which is the coffee that I like.

 

I can't really demonstrably tell you if there's a difference in taste. Like, I think I have been tricked into believing there is, but I don't know. I mean, coffee is coffee. It's a bitter drink, you know, and whatever.

 

But the reason I go into luck alone is because I know where these beans come from, and I know that there are small coffee makers that are getting a share of this, and I see their story on the packaging.

 

And I know that it's done ethically. And I know the distribution channels are clean. And when I look at Folders, I don't know anything. I look at their brand and I actually did this.

 

I looked at the Folders branding, and their whole brand is built on legacy what we've always been here. Sorry folders, not enough. And I'm gonna go with Oklahoma even though it costs way more.

 

Even though the taste is probably not different, it's beyond features and benefits. Interesting. Local almost communicated their vision. And it's just an example, but I think every product and service should be thinking that way.

 

Because if they don't, they're probably gonna be left behind. Consumers are very sophisticated now. So that's 2, communicate your vision. Volgers needs to communicate their vision. What is it?

 

I don't know. They should know. I don't know that they know. And then the third step is to build a watering hole. Now that you have a vision platform, now that you've communicated it, now you get to talk about it with other people.

 

And, you know, this translates into everything from meetings and conferences or, you know, maybe online communities or whatever the implementation is, but the idea is that you become the place where the industry congregates to talk about important issues.

 

Oh, I see. Because you've planted the seed. You said, this is what we should be doing, and everybody turns around and says, oh, Let's talk about this, and now they're coming to you.

 

I like to build a model in which we're not chasing the media, we're not chasing partners, we're not chasing investors, we're not chasing customers, they're just coming to us. Yeah. I tracked them. And that means they're the right ones.

 

Yeah. I like that. Especially the ones that are gonna align more closely with what you're trying to accomplish without you trying to solicit as much. Don't be wrong. I'm sure that marketing is not gonna die out either.

 

Right? You're gonna have to spread the word, but Yeah. Sure. I I like that a lot. And you were talking about La Kalome. I've never heard of them or had them, but I did, incidentally, just get a shipment of coffee that I ordered.

 

It what's today? So it arrived 2 days ago. Now I'm prefacing this because it's new to me. This this concept isn't new. Right? You find a company online, you order it, they ship your product.

 

Not a new model. What's new to me is it all happened on social media. It all happened specifically through Twitter. Quick shout out to this process. Because it's where my head went and then I'll tie it back into your point.

 

I was looking at podcasting stuff on Twitter over the last couple weeks and find a new profiles, new whatever things follow because that's sort of the new community watering hole as I'm pretty sure even Elon Musk said it.

 

And as I'm looking around at these podcasting profiles, I found a podcasting critic, a reviewer of podcasts, and this particular individual and connoisseur, I guess.

 

Happened to put up on her profile, this coffee shop in Buffalo called Orange Cat Coffee.

 

And so I figured, alright, well, to build my in. So I'll leave a couple comments here or there on podcasting stuff. I'll leave a couple comments here or there on some of the other posts and just build notoriety for transacting value.

 

And so as I started leaving those comments, I just happen to put out there, hey, if you ever find yourself back there, put it up on your profile, and then I'll order through you.

 

You can order it while you're there. And she said, no. Just go to their profile and order it. They ship. And sure enough, I went to their Twitter profile, which it just so happens you have to call them to place the order.

 

But I called placed an order. And the next day after I placed the order, the manager called, and today we just saw your order, you know, really appreciate it.

 

Just delivery time this shipping cost this, giving you the information, whatever. Here's why we're phone call only. Custom coffees.

 

I got a butterscotch toffee coffee, light roast. I'm normally a dark roast guy, but it's it's pretty good. Anyway, so and then it showed up a couple days ago. Right? Like I said, ordering products off the Internet is not new.

 

It's not revolutionary anymore as it was 20 years ago. But the concept that really just rocked me was using social media for the sake of, you know, rapport and communication and conversation and just being social for business.

 

And that model I've never paid attention to before, and I can't be 1 out of however many billions of people in the world that that applies to.

 

And, you know, for every hundreds of millions, every whatever singular billions of people that it does apply to means there's a whole other 50 percent of people in the world that don't.

 

So it's still a huge market share that isn't being taken advantage of that may very well fit into some kind of vision strategy.

 

You know, where the the 19 year old Twitter posters and YouTube reviewers and 16 year olds that can't get a regular job yet because of statutory legislation or whatever.

 

There's potential out there to create your own job. You mentioned a great resignation earlier, but, I mean, look at you. You're an entrepreneur starting your own job. You know? Imagine if you can do that. Yeah.

 

Well, yeah. But imagine if you could do that at, you know, if you now knowing what you know, could have done that when you were 15 with music industry or movies or whatever you were into, but it wasn't mowing lawns and walking dogs.

 

It's not that anymore, you know. Yeah. So true. 1 of the things I love that story because it's such a good example of vision based communications and marketing.

 

I mean, this was classic word-of-mouth, but there was a structure in place. Yeah. And so there was a meaningful interaction that led to this that they followed through on that promise of having a meaningful interaction.

 

Yeah. Where they called you, it would have blown my mind if somebody from Buffalo that I ordered coffee from called me. And, you know, it's sort of like this with smart e commerce brands. They're learning this.

 

And they're 1 of my clients is electric marketing, and they do entirely e commerce brands. And the smart ones are really just focusing on the value of the customer's relationship and not on acquiring new customers.

 

And so now, chances are you're probably going to go back to this place. Because you had that meaningful touch point, and that's where the magic happens. 1 of the other subscriptions I get is welsh cakes.

 

And these are, if you've never had them, beautifully good, griddled little cakes that you guys can have for breakfast, I have them for breakfast, They're, like, kind of like a scone ish, Wells cake baker.

 

I bet I met them at some sort of festival or fair. And I ordered from them, and they sent me a handwritten note, and I get Wells cakes from them every month now because I know they're looking at me.

 

Well, it's it's it's funny you say that because a lot of these things that are happening now, these advents and revolutions and changes in in in business.

 

I mean, not all of them, obviously. I can't claim that with any sort of relevance or statistic empirical data. But a handwritten note made the difference.

 

You remember you said Gen eggs, but you remember, you know, maybe late eighties or at least for me, it was or for you when you were growing up and your parents or your grandparents or somebody said, hey, when you get presents at Christmas, make sure you send them a thank you card.

 

Yeah. Yeah. Or like when you It's instilled into my DNA. I have to do that. Yeah. Exactly. But that's what's making the difference now between success and failure in business.

 

You just hand right a thank you card, and it means everything to somebody else, you know, whereas you get a gift at Christmas now and they're like, hey, don't forget to call your cousin and say thank you.

 

You're like, I will, you know, and then just stop. Right. And it's the little sort of consistent concepts when it comes to, I think, humanity and just social interaction. That's gonna outlast all of these changes. Right?

 

If you were to say I say you generally, but if you were to say, hypothetically, what's going to stick? What's got the most longevity It's the reliable interactions between people that have now or no longer theories, in my opinion.

 

Right? Like manners, identifying values, character development, understanding how to socialize, what your strengths and weaknesses are. Like you said, all the detail stuff is gonna change and you can't really base anything off of it.

 

But, I mean, for example, the customer service you just talked about following up on a meaningful action for repeat business, fiduciary responsibility, whatever.

 

I mean, that's now the differentiating factor, I think. Alrighty. Folks, sit tight, and we'll be right back on transacting value.

 

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Understanding how to socialize what your strengths and weaknesses are? Like you said, all the detailed stuff is gonna change and you can't really base anything off of it.

 

But I mean, for example, the customer service you just talked about following up on a meaningful action for repeat business, fiduciary responsibility, Whatever. I mean, that's now the differentiating factor, I think. It's good business.

 

And it always been good business, but the difference is we've relied so much on acquisition tactics where I'm just gonna buy my way into your visibility through a pop up ad or a commercial and later with Facebook marketing, I can completely target Facebook marketing was highly successful for that reason.

 

You know, yes Facebook, I would like that keyboard that's shaped like the spaceship.

 

I don't know. And that sort of like impulse marketing, which has always been successful. But now because of the information age, I don't even know if we can call it that anymore.

 

Yeah. But because of that, we don't care. I mean, yeah, I mean, if I want a spaceship keyboard, I'll go buy 1. I don't need to like, you see an ad for that. It's interrupting my flow.

 

You know, the tools that we used to use are are much more important because people aren't using it. When Apple changed their iOS, on the privacy settings. Uh-huh. The Facebook advertising ecosystem collapsed effectively.

 

And now ecommerce is like, well, what now? I can't do my highly targeted messages, and I'll tell you what now, you need to be a better brand and be authentic and reach people by caring about them.

 

That's what now. Yeah. I mean You can't you can't cheat your way to the top anymore. Well, sure.

 

And it's sort of the irony of the more distance we're deletating with technological innovations and efficiency and changes and upgrades and updates. And the further apart, almost I don't know what you call that sort of a chasm.

 

If it's not geographic, it's, I don't know, technological. People are valuing being treated as people the more reliance there is on a technological distance. Mhmm.

 

You know, it's weird. It's like functionalities being automated, convenience is being automated, but people still appreciate being treated as people. Even if it's with a cartoon or an avatar or digital representation of themselves.

 

Yeah. Absolutely, hundred percent. Yeah. I don't know if that's a worldwide attribution. I imagine it would be. We're all the same species, but Have you seen trends internationally or is your focus primarily domestic?

 

It's been a mix lately. It's been domestic, but I do have international partners, and I have had worked internationally quite a bit. And in general, I think the rest of the world might be ahead of the U. S. On this.

 

On what? On creating meaningful interactions with customers and partners and being more authentic in their marketing and communications, in in some cases blazing the trail for the next generation of e commerce and things like that.

 

You know, Shopify is a Canadian company. It's a good example of the antithesis to Amazon, and what's going on in e commerce.

 

And then, in marketing and communications, I see a whole lot of disdain for aggressive marketing tactics in the US. It just doesn't fly in places like Europe or Asia.

 

Mhmm. So in some ways, I think that the rest of the world might be a little ahead on this. And I think that's probably because Americans in general are very, you know, focused on ourselves.

 

We're getting better, though. Yeah. I mean, and everything does over time. At least it tends to over time, you know, if you if you average it out.

 

But there's definitely some things that internationally you start to see this I think initially in what the eighties, maybe even into the early nineties, we're talking IBM or what was the was IBM.

 

They were talking about this sort of kaizen model of efficiency and and moving through trying to get businesses to focus on their their products and services and their management styles and structures.

 

But nobody, at least from what I remember hearing about or have looked at since, seemed to really be focusing on upward and outward leadership. It was all internal at the time.

 

And I think now There's a or at least over the last 40, 50 years, there's been an increased reliance on upward and outward structure and less reliance on corporate structure internally and reliance and relevance to bettering your, you know, employees and your corporate value system.

 

And focusing on your internal structure. It's sort of like as we've had in the US at least with a lot of our presidents over the last 20, 30 years even.

 

Where there's this sort of flip flop where 1 president within their 4 to 8 year term will focus on domestic issues and foreign policy sort of dies down comparably.

 

And then the next president comes in and focuses on foreign policy and their domestic agendas sort of dwindle comparably.

 

And then it alternates back and forth. Up until we had most recently where Trump was more focused on domestic considerations and bettering the US.

 

That was his whole, obviously, platform. And then Biden, overall, aside from COVID and a few other issues primarily, is focusing on foreign policy.

 

Over domestic issues, and it sort of has gone back and forth. I think that business has done a lot of the same just in a longer, more stretched out bell curve and cycle.

 

Where we'll focus outward and now we focus inward and now we focus outward and now we focus inward. So how do you recommend in your experience better or more effectively balancing those 2 agendas as a business?

 

I believe you need to do it simultaneously. And the best way to do that is to create roles and make those very clear. Rolls. Rolls. In a lot of organizations, the executive team pretty much handles everything.

 

And you know, we have to remember that the purpose of a CEO was to carry out strategy, not operations as the purpose of a CEO, and the CEO is not really in charge of marketing.

 

That's what the CMO is for just to use corporate structure. Sure. But all of those lines have blurred.

 

And so the whole organization will look at a big marketing push, for example, and then shift their focus to, oh, we have to take care of our internal culture. And then they'll shift the focus. It's okay, what about our shareholders?

 

And it's like the eye of Sauron moving from problem to problem. Really, that needs to be divided and conquerors like my role is this. I'm going to focus on creating business partnerships. Your role is this.

 

You're going to focus on your marketing programs. Your role is to focus on that. And then just give the other the people who are focused on those. Give them the independence and the political power to do what they need to do.

 

Business leaders tend to macro manage every division within the organization. The only thing they need to be focused on is growing the business on a macro level and communicating the message to the external and fixing the industry.

 

That's what they should be focused on, and obviously using their resources for that.

 

But I know few business leaders that do that. Many of them like to look at the operations and everything else, they wanna approve the marketing email before it goes out. And, you know, why are you doing that? That's not your role.

 

You know, your marketing guy needs to do that. So I think we can look at everywhere. That's why you have a team. Yeah. Well, and so in dividing and conquering whatever problem set issue, success, achievement, whatever this applies to.

 

I agree. I think the general platform has been you focus this, you focus this, you focus this as 3 individual people, to example.

 

But from a zoomed out perspective, those 3 people comprising that 1 unit have now combined their efforts to conquer that issue. And I think that combine and conquer philosophy is I agree the right way to go.

 

And then more specifically now, we're not talking primarily centralized business environments. I think the push is a little bit more greater towards decentralized.

 

I think the more realistic end state is a distributed. Structure for businesses. And so better identifying a process, a culture, a structure, an application, a client base, whatever, a vision.

 

To combine and conquer all of these different pieces but to focus to your point earlier each individual strength to the success of the group as a combined entity and then scale that based on unit in a distributed type environment.

 

I I think that's ultimately where it's gonna go.

 

Now how, I don't know, in which industries first, in what future, you know, demographic or or currency is gonna make the most I don't know. But I think that's the platform and process that's going to to transcend where we're at now.

 

I think that's what's next. Alrighty folks sit tight and we'll be right back on transacting value. Alrighty, folks. This is Porter with the transacting value podcast.

 

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Guys, I'm Porter. I'm your host, and this is the transacting value podcast. But I think that's the platform and process that's going to to transcend where we're at now. I think that's what's next.

 

That actually brings us to the last segment of the show, developing character -- Evelipping character. -- ready to play. Yeah. Let's do it. Alright. So we've talked an awful lot about businesses and business structure.

 

This is more you centric. So the focus of this is 3 questions where Question number 1. We focus on the past. So how do you describe or view the values that you had as a teenager?

 

As a teenager, I valued independence and creativity more than anything. Uh-huh. I wanted and was a creator, and I wanted to the freedom to do whatever I wanted in service to that.

 

And and creator, I mean, I was a writer. I designed games and things like that. And I was doing that instead of homework, good schoolwork. So because that didn't matter to me.

 

I wasn't important wasn't important was that I got my creations out. Yeah. Well, I mean, said every successful person as they stand today about them then. So I think you're in a solid group of people for sure.

 

Yeah. All of us nurses as as teenagers. Yeah. Yeah. Now if we're moving forward to the present, question number 2, What are some of your values now that you prefer to embody or exemplify?

 

There are a few, and I've done a lot of self reflection during the pandemic because I'm sure a lot of people have.

 

Mhmm. But I believe in my strongest value is to create a stable society in whatever way I can. So stability, if I had to put in 1 word, but not just of myself and my home, but my community, my country, my world.

 

I want things to be I almost said normal, but that's not the right word. I want things to be level. Uh-huh. You know, and I want playing fields to be level.

 

I want to have stability in society. That's a big ass, man. Good luck. Yeah. And sure I'm not alone in that. I mean, they're probably feeling that way because of the last 4 or 5 years. Yeah. And how tumultuous things have been.

 

But that's definitely driving almost everything that I do. Yeah. And it's a solid direction. Because you're always gonna have something to chase. So you really are going to avoid burnout unless you just work yourself out of it. Yeah.

 

It's it's it's a commendable direction to push. And what we're talking about what may happen, let's go to question 3. How do you view your values changing over the next 20 years. These are hard questions. And they may not change at all.

 

But I think a focus on this is an extension of stability. Mhmm. But a focus on peace, not world peace, but like being able to sit on the boat in the harbor without care. Oh, sure. You know? Yeah. But not complacency. Yeah.

 

Not complacency, but, like, I'm comfortable. It's in the line in Hamilton where I'm sitting under Well, I guess it was an actual line in history, where I'm sitting under the fig tree piece with the world that I'm at. Contentment. Yeah.

 

Yeah. That will be nice. I think some of that is obviously going to come to your earlier point from inner peace and not having anything that you really need to apologize for because you've been primarily authentic throughout your life.

 

But, yeah, ideally trying to spread that will help increase the likelihood of that sentiment for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I appreciate you answering that.

 

Now for anybody else that wants to get in touch with you, track down not another business podcast or reach out to you via email for consulting or or any other number of reasons people might want to get in touch with you.

 

How best can they do that? I think just going to my website has everything. Havener dot com, HAVENNER, dot com.

 

They tell me it's Dutch, I don't know, of the haven. Yeah, that's probably the best way to reach me. I'm on social media and I'm as active now as I should be, although I have a person helping me with that.

 

We all need help. Yeah. I hired somebody and said you have to keep me accountable. That's the problem. I don't do the things that I tell people to do. So you have to tell me to do it. Yeah. And it's working so far.

 

You know, every great athlete needs a coach. So nobody's great on their own. Yeah. But okay. So if we go to your website, that gives us email access, social media, and obviously information about you and your company.

 

What about your podcast? Yep. And the podcast will be linked from there as well. Oh, easy. So everything's on there.

 

Yep. Everything's there. Wow. Yeah. That was simple. Alright. Perfect. Well, saying that then, I appreciate you taking some time out of your day so we could sit down and talk for a little while. And I appreciate your insight.

 

Ultimately, it was a lot of topics that I think melded pretty well together. So I I appreciate you being able to make some time, but ultimately, I appreciate your perspective and being able to carry the conversation, man.

 

Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate you as well. This was a really great conversation. I think more conversations like this, you know, would be great.

 

Yeah. Well, and this is where it starts. You know, like we said earlier, every little piece has to start somewhere. I don't think there's ever been successful watering hole without a well worn path for animals to get to it.

 

So -- Right. -- you're gonna do -- Right. -- you know. But all things considered Thank you to everybody listening for listening into our core values for October of vision, authenticity, and responsibility.

 

Also, thank you to, as we had mentioned earlier, Adam Grant from the Worklife podcast. Russell Crow, if you ever hear this, thanks for being in a beautiful mind, but ultimately, John Nash.

 

Lock alone coffee. We talked about orange cat coffee, obviously, electric marketing, Walsh cake bakery. Thank you guys for your inspiration.

 

And all the experience, Mark, that you've been relying on to pull into this as well. But to our show partners, Keystone Farmers Market, being the bear creations, obviously, anchor for your distribution as well.

 

Now if you're interested in joining our conversation or want to discover our other interviews, check out transacting value podcast dot com.

 

And remember, you can follow along on social media too while we continue to stream new interviews every Monday at 9AM Eastern Standard Time. On all your favorite podcasting platforms. So until next time, that was transacting value.