Success is what builds self esteem, and self esteem is what underlies resilience.

And so You have to let kids fail, and you have to let them learn from their failure, and you have to show them how to pick up the pieces, and start over again. And that's how you do it Brazil. Alrighty, folks.

Welcome back to transacting value where we're encouraging dialogue from different perspectives. To unite over shared values. Our theme for 20 22 is the character of your character. So who you see when you look your values in the mirror?

Today, we're talking our November core values of gratitude, appreciation, and resilience with author of raising other people's children and founder of other people's children, miss Debbie Osburn.

So if you're new to the podcast, welcome. And if you're a continuing listener, welcome back.

Without further ado, folks on Porter, I'm your host. And this is transacting value. Alrighty, folks. This Thanksgiving season, your year may well just beat hitting stride after the last 2 years of unplanned opportunities and growth.

To broaden the positive impact and alignment Getting your life back on track in 20 22, email survival dad y t at gmail dot com, or direct message on Twitter, Facebook, or Instagram, a comment or a clip of you sharing your gratitude in our what are you grateful for?

Campaign and see your responses showcased on our social media pages and a special shout out announcement by me on Thanksgiving Morning.

Answers can vary in only need to be a sentence or 2, but which aspects of your life are you grateful for? Alright, Debbie. How you doing? Welcome to the show.

Thank you. Doing fine. I appreciate the opportunity, and I'm a lawyer, so I stay busy causing trouble. Yeah. Yeah. Well, hopefully hopefully, I don't say anything too contentious, but don't hold me in contempt if I do. No.

I'm not a judge. So Alright. Well, now that we've established that, permission to speak freely. Yes. Most definitely. Okay. No. I I appreciate the opportunity. I know you've got a lot of family and a lot of things going on in your life.

This, especially being sort of the time of year in the fall as everybody does. So I don't wanna take up too much of your life, but I I really appreciate it. So first of all, thank you for coming on.

Oh, well. Thank you. I appreciate the opportunity. I always enjoy having good conversations with people. Yeah. Yeah. Me too. And I think this is gonna be 1 of them. Now all of that being said, You're an author.

You're a lawyer. You've obviously raised loads of children directly and indirectly. And throughout the rest of your life experience. What's available on your website isn't I assume necessarily indicative of who you are as a person.

So can we start there for a second? Who are you? What do you do? Where are you from? Well, I grew up in the South. What I do Well, how I make my living is as a lawyer defending youth organizations and doing trial work defense.

What I do is raise other people's children. Mhmm. It's had it been how I've spent my life I'm now moving into a season of where my husband and I have all of our kids are adults. I've discovered I enjoy that.

So we're looking at shifting from taking care of children under the age of 18 to mentoring kids who have aged out of the foster care system without a family network and maybe providing some mentoring to them.

So that I think will be our next the next phase that we're going into. That's interesting.

I don't know if anything I mean, does anything like that exist? Yes. There are several groups out there that do that. The 1 that we are working with right now is called connection phone, and they are in Georgia and Texas.

And hope being to expand to other states. I don't know about other states, but I know there are several groups out there that have recognized this is a serious need.

And are working on connecting people who are interested in providing mentoring, but not necessarily a place to live for kids. Yeah. That's the That's when I get I mean, young adults.

Well, sure. But we're all kids at heart. Right? So Right. Right. Now that's that's huge. You know, whether it's homelessness or foster care or divorce or just by choice, and you you sort of try to emancipate or whatever applies.

Having some sort of community that you can rely on either from your perspective as a mentor or from somebody else's perspective as a mentee, so to speak, is invaluable. Yeah. Or just regular people.

I mean, I don't wanna trivialize out there. Yeah. You know, whatever No. We all we all need a safety net -- Yeah. -- and the kids who have aged out of the foster care system at whatever age they are whenever the foster care ends.

They have a huge percentage of them who end up homeless or know where to go because they just don't have that safety net that most of us have.

Of what a sounding board or resiliency? How to cope? What do you mean? Well, 1 of the problems with kids in foster care is most of them have some level of trauma.

And learning the skills to be resilient is very hard for them. The system isn't set up for resilience, that's 1 of the things we foster parents could use some help with.

And we're just now beginning to understand what underlies resilience with kids. We've tried all sorts of things for the last ever how many decades. Sure.

And we went through these self esteem generation where we were trying to inculcate self esteem into kids by using affirming words and those kinds of things, not ever letting them suffer badly from competition, the, you know, everybody gets to participation, trophy kind of model.

Yeah. Right. And we understand that doesn't work. That success is what builds self esteem.

And self esteem is what underlies resilience. And so, You have to let kids fail, and you have to let them learn from their failure, and you have to show them how to pick up the pieces and start over again.

And that's how you build results. And foster care isn't very good at helping kids pick up the pieces and putting things back together again.

Now when you say that, do you mean as a community being able to communicate and talk through that or as a endemic problem within the system that it's just a service that's not there.

It's an endemic problem in the system. 1 of the biggest problems that we hear in foster care and for foster kids is they get moved around a lot.

Sometimes they don't know why. Most of us who've been in foster care for a while when we get a kid whose placement has been disrupted earlier.

We go through a period of If so with the pattern, it gets to appear to them following every rules. And when they start feeling comfortable, they start breaking rules and pushing the boundaries.

And as 1 of my kids told me, I was intent on getting myself kicked out before you kicked me out. Because it was, in her mind, it was just inevitable that she was going to transgress some rule somewhere and get kicked out.

So there's not a lot of communication about commitments and boundaries on our commitments and displacements get disrupted, which causes some level of trauma.

But the system doesn't have any resources in place for foster families to say, what do we do with this kid? There's not a lot of therapy options, the therapy options that are there are not very good.

And it very difficult to work with families, poor families to work with kids who have this much trauma and to help them be resilient and find a way to succeed in whatever trauma response they're having to the stuff that's going on in their lives.

So part of it is we're just now learning about trauma informed care and just now learning about trauma triggers and those kind of things. But part of it is because the system just doesn't know how to deal with it.

Already folks sit tight and we'll be right back on transacting value. If you're looking for high quality locally sourced groceries, The Keystone farmer's market is the place to be.

Alongside our signature homemade boil peanuts, we strive to offer only the best locally sourced POSTA, BATE GOODS, JAMES AND JLLIES, FARMAGS AND DARY PRODUCTS, MEETS, AND EVEN seafood, AS A GREAT SLEXION OF FRED PROTES.

AT'S THE KEY STONE FARMERS MARKET.

1 2615 TarpEN SPRINGS ROAD IN Odessa, FLORIDA. THE PLACE WITH ABOIL Panuts. Part of it is we're just now learning about trauma informed care and just now learning about trauma triggers and those kind of things.

But part of it is because the system just doesn't know how to deal with it. Families who are foster care families, We never have the same case worker for very long. I don't know the solution to that.

There's a lot of turnover in case workers. There's a lot of information that gets lost. Sometimes we don't know what we're getting into when we get these kids. Because the information that's relevant just doesn't get transmitted to us.

There's a theory that sometimes case workers are so desperate for a placement they don't tell us the bad things because they really don't want us to turn this kid down.

There's just a lot of there's no 1 simple solution to it. Well, no. I imagine there's not. But it's a people business.

Right? So it's gonna be complex just by nature. Yes. Oh, yes. It's very complex. And then you get kids who have every resource in the world and just turn it down because they want to be themselves. In their authentic selves.

And the problem of course is most of us discover in the world that at base our very authentic selves are not always nice people that other people like to have around. Yeah. So Yeah. There's 2 points you mentioned.

I guess first, there's definitely a threshold to being authentic and genuine to yourself where in order to integrate into society and be willing to accept society's morals, you have to compromise a little bit on who you are.

For example, I enjoy driving fast. But -- Right. -- if there's a pedestrian in the crosswalk, I have to stop and let them walk. That's -- Right. -- that's a custom in society that I have to compromise on.

I can't go as fast as I want. There's speed limit. Right. Right? I don't have to sacrifice my character though. There's a difference. No. You don't. Exactly. You you never sacrifice integrity.

Right. But For example, to take something that is a lesson that took me a while to learn, I was probably in my forties before I realized it, being my authentic self doesn't mean that I always have to be blunt and give my opinion.

There's no sacrifice and integrity for me to be tactful And if I want friends, I need to be tactful.

Yeah. Oh. Yeah. That's that's a good 1 too. On your website, I'm pretty sure you even say that your understanding is that you're not the person who was supposed to be in their lives in that role obviously.

What do you write? Well, that is 1 of the biggest problems with being a foster parent or a step parent. And that is that from the kid's perspective, we're only there because something went very wrong with their lives.

We are not the people who are supposed to be there. From a kid's perspective, the people who are supposed to be there are their biological parents.

And if they don't have that intact biological family, then they are constantly dealing with that loss and the fact that something is out of guilt.

It is I used to talk about it being a record that had the whole law center, but that's such an old, old analogy. Maybe I should talk about It's a DVD that has gotten put in wrong.

No matter. No matter how you adjust it, it is not going to play well. And so, you know, I I had this when not long after I got married, my husband his 2 youngest kids were still at home, and his ex wife asked for custody.

We were trying to get the kids' perspective, and our youngest son just he wasn't going to give us an answer. Us in want to sound like he was taking sides.

And we didn't want him to take sides. We just didn't want to spend a lot of resources on something that he didn't want So my husband finally said, look, if you had a magic wand, what would your life look like?

And he said, well, dad, if I had a magic wand, you and mom would still be back together.

And then he paused, and he looked over at me very anxious, because he and I had bonded. We were very close. He looked at me and said, Now, no insult there.

You and the dogs would be right next door. And and and I didn't get my feelings hurt because I got to what he was saying. If he had had his choice, of course he and I would be good friends, and I would be involved in his life.

But I would be a teacher or a neighbor or basketball coach or something. But his mom and dad would still be back together, and that's what most of our kids want. Is for their biological family to be functional.

Mhmm. And anything that is not that is just trying to work with them at a very steep hill. And it's not about a, it's about the situation they find themselves in. You're saying taking those comments personally or otherwise?

Right. Yes. So you you don't take those comments personally. Like I said, it's not about us. My stepson's and I have a very close relationship. And we get along great. I cannot imagine my life without them, but I'm not their mother.

And I never will be, and that's okay. Well, that takes a fair amount of what would you call that? Self assessment. You know, understanding where you are and being accepting of that and humility.

And for you as an individual too, I'm sure at some point, it takes a toll until you're able to process Already folks sit tight and we'll be right back on transacting value.

Hello, everyone. This is Cassie Baez from the podcast. Adulting 01:01 with Caspi Bias. I wanted to share something with you all today. Before we jump into a new episode, of the transacting value podcast.

If you are a young professional or a recent college graduate who is looking for additional content on life, Specifically, how to survive adulthood, then come check out adulting 01:01 with Kasby bias.

We teach all about different types of life topics. From how to find a job to how to cope with family pressure to get married, how to survive getting fired, how to file your own taxes.

How to rate your first department and more. Check out the podcast adulting 1 1 with caspi bias at caspi bias dot com slash podcast. That's CASBYBIAS dot com slash podcast.

Alright. Now let's get into today's episode. You know, understanding where you are and being accepting of that and humility and For you as an individual too, I'm sure at some point, it takes a toll until you're able to process. It does.

And you have to again, I learned this from my foster kids, but I have to be secure in my own assessment of myself, and I have to to get back to 1 of your things, for example, it's very easy for us as foster parents or step parents to think we're so much better than the parents that these kids came from.

And our kids should be grateful for us. For our giving them the opportunity, or our taking them at our home with whatever sacrifices we're making.

And of course, from our perspective, we are making a lot of sacrifices, and it would be nice to have some gratitude. But we aren't going to get it because it is.

Yeah. And so, we just have to be secure in ourselves and be willing to give and give sacrificially to them. Without them giving us any of the emotional kudos that we want or that we may be entitled to.

We have to get our relationships and our gratitude and our appreciation from our adult relationships and not count on getting it from the kids.

Yeah. And a lot of what you just said too may be true. You may be, and ideally, putting them in a better situation from where they started, but to think that sort of entitlement and this isn't just for fostering.

This is in any capacity as a human, but to think that that sort of entitlement is solely because of your efforts, that sort of self centered type satisfaction, I think, is more similar to your initial point where it's not about you.

Right. And if it were, you'd be taking in yourself and only taking care of yourself and you're not.

So that I think is also a difficult realization, just like I said, as a human, but for that reason, when I read that on your site that you said you're not the person who was supposed to be in their lives.

From that angle, that's why I totally disagree because clearly you have become the person that's supposed to be there.

You know, to help them learn to build resiliency or some semblance of gratitude, but to help them process into their own versions of better humans.

And I think that says a lot. No pun intended but about your character and your ability to communicate, you know.

That's a lot. That's a lot. And I don't know what I'm saying. It's still a process. Oh, I didn't start there. That was a lesson that my kids taught me. And it was 1 that I just had to accept and learn.

I agree with you. I mean, from a cosmic perspective or from my theology, this is where God wants me and he put me in their lives. But from their perspective, it doesn't fit. It's not right.

And they have to process that before they can have any sort of -- Mhmm. -- healthy relationship with us. Yeah. Well, I mean awareness or managing expectations depending on your perspective of the equation. It counts for everything.

If you're not willing to accept a lesson, it's not gonna go anywhere. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Speaking a language that somebody else needs to hear is not always the same as what they're able to interpret. Exactly. Yeah.

That definitely is a hurdle for any relationship, though, whether it's paired to kids, kids to parents, kids to kids, whatever applies. Yeah. The point that you brought up earlier basically about not just assuming that they'll be okay.

I think is interesting, but I got a little confused and so I'm looking for clarity. Are you talking about some sort of, like, intensive leadership or some sort of intrusive perspective?

Or do you give them distance? Like, you can't assume they're gonna be okay, but you gotta have some hope that they'll be functioning adults and be able to grow on their own.

Right? Oh, yes. And, of course, there's hope and we're always trying to show them a longer perspective and a longer horizon, but we have to know who we're dealing with.

And in general, with foster kids and to some extent deaf kids, I can circle back to that in a minute.

We are dealing with kids who have suffered trauma. And that trauma leaves a mark that makes it hard, in some cases, extremely difficult, nearly impossible. For them to process events in their lives, the way non traumatized kids do.

The reason I say that our deaf kids have faced that is because If we're step parents, we're in a kid's life because their biological family has fallen apart due to either death or divorce.

Mhmm. And either 1 of those leaves the trauma, Ethan civilized divorces where the parents remain friends it leaves some level of trauma with kids.

It may not be as bad as my foster kids or kids who's been abused, but there is still that sense of the world being out of pills for these kids.

So all of us who are raising other people's kids need to understand that there is some level of disturbance and trauma there. Alrighty. Folks sit tight and we'll be right back on transacting value. Alright.

Will mcclelland host of Scott Scott's stories on TikTok. An occasional co host of transacting value the podcast through survival day at y t. Scotchrot stories focuses on books in my library and the lessons they carry, of course.

There is a tremendous value in the reading. Or imagination growth, perspective, and conversation even. See books carry the lessons of our ancestors, and the imaginations of anything that could be.

They build promise, showcase potential and shared history. In fact, the common trending thought in written communication is the same as when spoken.

Build the commonalities around values, read the community for life, If you haven't interacted with Scotch Scotch stories, there's topics like gender equality, mental health, abuse, drinking, depression, and divorce.

But There is also gratitude, appreciation, respect, courtesy, and self empowerment. Stop in. Sit for a minute and listen to Scotch Scotch stories on TikTok because after all, waters may be fought over knowledge and insight.

But the pen has long outlasted the sword and that it can only be 1. So all of us who were raising other people's kids need to understand that there is some level of disturbance and trauma there.

Maybe not quite the adverse childhood experiences that have been studied so much of parents in jail or abuse or those kind of things. But there is something that has gone wrong in their family that has affected their development.

So I firmly believe that we can get kids past that if they can learn resilience, and that we can get them to a place of functioning. There's a couple of difficulties, but 1 is sometimes they reject us.

We are the villain rather than the mentor in their lives. And we have to work harder than biological parents would to be the trusted mentor rather than the villain in their lives.

And so I'm always hopeful with our kids, but we just have to understand that we have to recognize the possibility of trauma and we have to, whenever we get a reaction that we think of as that attitude or entitlement or whatever, it may be a bad attitude or entitlement because, you know, particularly teenagers.

All kids have their off days and all kids can be entitled, but we also have to keep open the possibility and watch for signs that it's actually a trauma response.

Which needs a much more delicate hand than your normal, ordinary childhood things, or just being obnoxious.

Well, yeah. And like I said, everybody grows differently, but there are definitely some commonalities in that development process.

Right. Now in I guess, the potential for that mental health trauma in varying people. You mentioned trauma informed care. Earlier. Right. Right. But as a sort of reference to the administrative angle of this system.

Right? But when it comes to trauma informed care, as far as I've dealt with these situations, these conversations, these emotions before, even may be exhibited similarly by other foster kids, for example.

And now I'm seeing it again. How strong is that tendency for a first response to be Well, I'll just address it the same way I did before because it worked last time, vice.

Oh, we always that's how we as human beings are designed. Once we have an advantage, it creates a channel in our brain, if you will.

I know it doesn't physically. But but it's like brain water coming off a roof that creates a channel. Then the next time it rains, the rain goes down that channel. Mhmm.

So we all tend to look at experiences and look for something we've seen before so that we can categorize that it's the way we have a coping that any disaster response paramedic or an emergency room doctor or Red Cross, that's the big part of their training is so that when people see x, they can say, ah, I recognize x and we treat it by doing y.

And I've done why a gazillion times, and that's why we're going to do why.

So, that's how human beings do. And that's a good thing in most situations the problem runs into when what you're seeing is not the same as what you've seen before.

And that's when you run into, you know, the old saying to someone who has a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

Yeah. And that's because we tend to interpret situations within the tool kids that we have. And a big part of trauma informed care and training is to train people to recognize what they are already.

To give you an example of my own life, my husband and I, we had a foster kid, and 1 of the constant discussions strong discussion argument that he and I would always have is me saying, wait, wait, wait, we're getting this reaction because of this, and he would say, you know, you're being too easy on the child because I've raised 5 kids and what I'm seeing is this, And so we would be back and forth with me saying he was being too hard at him saying I was being too easy, which is a very common between parents on all levels.

And the problem was, of course, there was enough truth behind both of us we were both close enough to being right that it was hard to figure out exactly what was going on because we're both seeing the same thing and interpreting it through all of our experiences.

And again, that's just how human beings are built.

So that's what trauma informed care does is it does a lot of training about what you're seeing looks to you like this, but it actually may be that. And the 2 are different. They have different origins and they need different responses.

Well, that method, I guess, of attributing pattern recognition to coping mechanisms or to problem solving or conflict resolution is invaluable Right? But only if you can see the pattern. Exactly.

On 1 hand, if you don't recognize the pattern in whatever role in this hypothetical scenario you you decide to fill, if you don't recognize the pattern, then you don't know to attribute a potential solution to that problem set or that trauma or that conflict.

Right? But on the other hand Exactly. If you scapegoat that problem and base it off of assumptions or some sort of bias as this will address the issue or trauma or conflict, then it may not.

So how do you teach or how do you recommend communicating open mindedness, compromise of perspective, a willingness to learn, sort of growth mindset towards that end state.

What have you seen work for you? I think the training and learning. For me, although I am a person of strong faith in many ways, I also wanted to face a good chunk of my decisions on science.

And once I discovered the mental health science such as it is. It's a soft science. You can't get the same level of causation and definitions that you can with physics, for example.

Sure. But I started seeing the strong correlation between trauma and various and secondary issues and started listening to kids, then I was able to understand that the pattern I was seeing was not just, it wasn't always.

I shouldn't say, sometimes it can be just teenagers being obnoxious or just kids.

Having a bad day. But I also understood once I started understanding trauma, and trauma responses and how it works. And my husband also is a person who's willing to accept science and facts.

And The only area where he and I did for is how long we're willing to try something that's not working before we learn something else. And I'm not going to admit which 1 I was tends to go farther down the road to the other 1.

But once the training was here's what the pattern is with trauma, and it often looks like the same kind of thing that you're used to seeing with non traumatized kids.

But here is what makes it different, then we started seeing different. Again, same way emergency room doctors learn to make the differentiation between a heart attack and indigestion.

You know, there's a lot of overlap of symptoms that you have to learn what the differentiating symptoms are. Which ultimately just comes with experience from your perspective.

But what about for kids who don't have the life experience? You know, they're 6, 7, 08:12 years old. Yeah. That's tough. It is that's why there's a lot of therapy out there.

There's a lot of good books. I can't remember the author of an author who talks about big feelings -- Uh-huh. -- and has books for kids about when you have big feelings and how to deal with them.

And there's much more that has come out in the last 20 to 30 years in helping kids and families trauma informed therapist know how to work with kids in ways because, again, they've been trained in recognizing the patterns.

And understanding how to reach it. So parents have to learn it and then learn how to teach it to the kids. And that's 1 of the difficulties with our foster system.

Is it hard to keep kids in a placement long enough for them to learn? And it's hard to find highly trained parents who have the resources to hang with kids long enough for them to learn.

Yeah. I imagine it would be And that that level of consistency in any endeavor obviously is only going to increase the chance of success.

But -- Right. -- I imagine there as well. Debbie, let's take a break for a couple minutes and everybody listening will be right back on transacting value.

Hey, y'all. It's jewels here with the b and the bear creations. We specialize in custom tumblers, t shirts, car decals, and anything else you can think of.

If you are looking to order a custom item for yourself or for someone else as a gift, please go find me on Facebook and shoot me a message and we'll get that ordered started for you.

Again, you can find me at the bee and the Bear creations on Facebook. I look forward to helping you create your custom item.

Alrighty folks. Welcome back to transacting value. Again, I'm here with Debbie Osborne, and we're talking about your value invalidating other people, your ability to work with other people's kids, primarily.

Right? People that came from other backgrounds, other perspectives, and you're helping them grow from that point forward.

So it's kind of a loaded topic and we're gonna dive more into it, but first of all, Debbie welcome back. Thank you. No problem. Now you had said something earlier that I think it's important we circle back to.

Where this process now and this isn't parenting, to clarify. This isn't parenting foster kids, step kids, biological kids, anybody else for that matter. This is just as people general parenting skills, you've got to be self aware.

Right? Yes. Okay. And I think that whatever relative level of understanding you've got of how you come across how you sound, your values, your character, what you want to teach, all of the above is important.

But as especially when it comes to not being so hard on yourself in this process as a parent.

Right? Because I'm sure -- Yeah. -- and I'm a long distance parent myself. So when I get hung up on because YouTube beat me out that night. Okay. You know, initially I took it kinda hard but now I'm like well, Okay.

What are you gonna do? Right? And then we rectify it later. But if you're in an argument as a parent with a child, over anything whatever age, which happens, you're gonna get blamed for something whether it's true or not, you know.

So taking that to heart, taking it with a grain of salt, whatever other aspect applies here. How did you learn or are learning to not be so hard on yourself and sort of forgive yourself be open minded and and learn as you go.

Well, part of it is I think we need to push back against sort of the there's 2 things we get in our culture these days that we as parents have push back in.

1 is the competitive parenting, where you get parents who say nothing is too good for my kid.

I will make every sacrifice for my kid. I will do whatever. And that makes the rest of us feel terrible because we can't make those same sacrifices, or we don't have that same level of patience or whatever.

And we're starting again to see more science that that level of parenting is really bad for our kids because it doesn't leave them with the ability to learn any skills themselves because it is condensing them that the world is a terrible place and they can't function without us instead of teaching them the skills they need to function in the world.

And so I think we as parents, we also have to recognize we are finite people with finite resources. And that we need to take a lot of them to our kids.

But if we like the kids, the center of our world, that's really terrible. Kids don't need to be the center of anybody's door. It's terrible for them. It's not good for their understanding of the world to think that they're the center.

Of the world or the set of the universe. They're important to us. We should sacrifice for them. We need to take care of them. But they do not need to be the center of anybody.

Any adult's world. And I think that plays into the second thing that makes it very, very difficult to teach kids resilience. And that is the current attitude in our society of the more victim points.

Is this what my kids used to call it? I can get lots of victim points. I'm a foster kid. I'm a -- Mhmm. -- this kind of kid. My parents were divorced. My dad was a drug addict.

Whatever. And there's 1 kid that at the end of that litany. And then I moved in with the old people who just don't understand. So all of those, said that she was explaining. I got plenty of victim voice to make my way in the world.

And that sense that our kids thrive by becoming victims and by hanging on to that victimhood is very damaging to them. Because it leads them stuck where they are and not able to develop any skills of resilience.

Because if they become resilient, they lose victim points, and they don't want to give off that currency of being able to be a victim and blame other people for their issues.

So sometimes in order to nudge kids and to explain to them, you know, nobody really is going to care that much about your victims. They certainly aren't going to care as much as you think they are.

Mhmm. Sometimes we have to be the bad guy. Being the only adult in the room is a tough place to be, and it involves being the bad guy and being the villain in the story. And we just have to accept that and not apologize for it.

So, on the 1 hand, you have to have the integrity to make sure that you're the villain because you are insisting on a standard that's important and that I'm not just seeding my preferences.

That it really is something that's important for my kids. And then on the other hand, just realize that good enough parenting is good.

And it's enough, and our kids will be fine. I like that. Good enough parenting is good and it's enough. Yes. Yeah. I mean, and that in itself with 1 kid, you're never going to accept upfront.

By the time you get to the third fourth fifth kid, like, no. No. No. No. We this is fine, you know. Right. Right. That's right. It's pacifier hits the floor and it The dog hasn't gotten to it yet, it's fine.

Yeah. So, you know, that's the joke with the third and fourth kid that's where you know, first kid, put it in the dishwasher, second kid, you wash it under the sink, third kid, you just wore it up when the dog got into it first.

Yeah. There's something you said though, this sort of thriving through victimization.

And I I get where you were coming from. That it was more based on these experiences. But where my head went as you were describing that was I have this metaphorical crutch.

Legitimized or or not, but I have this metaphorical crutch and so I should get this and I think that level of either victimization self imposed or victimized perspective some sort of outside entity imposed often leads to this form of entitlement or sense of entitlement -- Right.

-- that it isn't going to be, I don't know, effective, I guess. So for the long run, sustainable is a better word. Isn't gonna be sustainable.

Right. Right. I'm not trying to jump into student loan debt relief. I'm not trying to jump into food stamps and all these other things. But as programs are concerned, regardless of political affiliation and and aspect here.

As far as programs go, I mean, it all essentially promulgates the same thing. Like, if you didn't know what you got into before, I'm sorry, but now you know, so figure out how to afford it.

Is the same sort of principle as Well, you shouldn't have bought those tennis shoes last weekend when you know you wanted to save for a car in a year, you know, or or whatever to go out with your friends this weekend, vice going out with to that party next weekend.

So no, I'm not giving you 20 bucks or I guess now, no, I'm not giving you 50 bucks, you know, or 5 day going or whatever.

So I think all of those principles are the same, not that they all stem from the same level of causation, but that they're all the same essential parallel there conceptually.

And yeah, I agree. I think it is important of where that threshold is to say you're being too hard or not hard enough. Who knows, man? You just gotta learn as you go. You know? Right. Yeah. Right. And and if it was So you need it.

Yeah. And and I think that's important too. Like, hey, I'm sorry. I was so hard on you before, but here's why. Also teaches, oh, okay. Here's the boundaries and here's how you respond when you've infringed on those.

You know, there's there's lessons across the board depending on how you explain them. So almost the relativity of how difficult you made a situation isn't necessarily as much of a big deal then.

No. And I that's why 1 of the things that I always push is letting kids live with the consequences of their decisions because it keeps your finger pissed off of it.

The analogy I use, it has to be with the balance safety. But if you have a kid who doesn't want to do his fixes lunch the night before, forgets to do with the next morning. And go hungry for a day. You don't have to yell at it.

You don't have to nag. You just have to say, sorry. I'm too busy to bring your lunch. Now, the safety is 2 sons if you have a child who suffered from food insecurity and and has that as 1 of the traumas in his background.

Then you don't wanna let him go without lunch for too long because it becomes a trauma trigger, and it becomes a safety issue.

But within the realm of what kids can handle without it overwhelming them psychologically, let them get the bad grades.

Let them do without lunch. Let them live with the consequences without us, failing them out, luxuring them about it or saying anything -- Yeah. -- just let them live life in a safe environment. Yeah.

And you can put relative controls and parameters there. You know, like, they're at school. If you don't pack a lunch and they're hungry enough, the last a friend and they'll get a bag of chips event like it's not the end of the world.

It'll be an argument later and it'll be a rough emotional roller coaster when you pick them up.

But they'll be okay. Now, Debbie, I know you've got to get back to life and so I I don't want to keep you too much longer, but that does bring us into the last segment of our show called developing character, developing character.

Where to play? Yes. Of course. So here's how it works. Developing character involves 3 questions, and they're all entirely your perspective in as much depth and vulnerability as you're willing to get into.

Question number 1. What were your values when you were a teenager? My values I learned from my parents, they just spent a lot of time sacrificing to take care of other people.

That's how I got involved with working in social work in foster care. Was learning to bring big and to do what you could to help and take care of other people. I did have conflicting values, and my dad was the dreamer.

He's the 1 who built sandcastles in the air, and my mom was the 1 who put foundations under them. So I I sort of learned both to dream and also when you didn't have the foundation under them.

That is a tricky balance, especially when it's coming from that unified relationship. Yeah. Yes. It's good because you make a hybrid of the 2 and, you know, learn as you go.

Now question 2, what are some of your values now? I think my values now are still to try to take care of other people, but also to recognize limit to commitments.

And that's because I have with my foster kids dealt with some tricky problems that my parents I started saying my parents never quite dealt with. I think they actually did.

I have dealt with kids and friends and the family, for example, who were addicted to substance abuse. And my dad had dealt with that. But when I was he had dealt with family members who were alcoholics back in that day and time.

And he protected us a lot from that. So my dad did deal with family members who were addicted to substances. Back in that day, it was alcoholism. But he shielded us from that. So I never actually saw how they dealt with it.

But what I have learned is that there is some trauma that's just too difficult, and it's beyond my resources And what I need to do for some people is to let them hit bottom as soon as possible.

And to quit giving them all of my resources. I need to say some of my resources for myself and take care of the rest of my family.

That's probably the biggest change in my values, is understanding that I am a person of finite resources and that All healthy commitments have healthy boundaries.

Mhmm. Boundaries are important in every sense. Yeah. All things in moderation, I suppose. Yes. Question 3 though. How do you see your values changing in the next 20 years?

I think I'm on a journey of realizing that I'm not as about everything as I thought I was. Oh, man. I'm sorry. No. I know. That that is terrible. And and having to learn to change my facts, without changing my core belief.

I don't think any of the factors so far getting to matters of character or integrity or foundational belief, but they are dealing with my virtues, my patience, my humility, my certainty.

About about my own ability to understand what's the right thing.

Yeah. Well, that just comes with time too. So I'm glad you're able to adjust. Not easily and not happily, but, you know, facts or facts. Well, even big boats can turn. Just takes longer. Yes.

Now I appreciate this opportunity to talk to you and pick your brain a little bit. And for the record anybody listening, this is not privileged information and she is not representing me, feel free to listen and and take it to heart.

But, Debbie, if anybody does wanna reach out to you for let's say, for your book, raising other people's children or to get in touch with you about your organization or more along those lines than is specific to a law practice.

How do people reach out to you and and get in touch? The easiest 2 ways my book is at raising other people's children dot com.

That's where you can read all about the book. And then my blog is on my website. And if you get to my blog, you'll poke around my website, and you can find the email address and all of that information.

My blog is raising other people's children dot blog. Dot BL0G? Dot D00G. Alright. Perfect. So it's raising other people's children either dot com or dot blog.

Either 1 will get through me. Yeah. That keeps it easy. Alright. Perfect. Now do you have any social media people might be able to reach you on? Yes. I'm on Facebook under other people's children, and I'm on Twitter at debbie Osborne.

And I think my team has me on Pinterest. I also have a LinkedIn account that's under other people's children. Okay. So I believe. You could get to my blog, the social media links are gonna be at the bottom of the page. Okay. Alright.

Perfect. And for everybody listening, we'll be able to link to some of Debbie's social as well as the posts for this interview are coming up. You'll be able to refer to those or the description and show notes for this interview as well.

So saying that Debbie I appreciate the opportunity. I understand you've got to go but thank you for the time we did have and we'll stay in touch. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Yeah. No problem. And for everybody listening, thank you for listening into our core values for November of gratitude, appreciation, and resilience. And also, obviously, to other people's children and Debbie to your family.

But I'd also like to say quickly thank you to a few different organizations together, Georgia, the National Foster Parent Association, and also there's a podcast called reframe children's mental health podcast by Hillside Incorporated to all of you guys for your inspiration as well.

That's where I was pulling some of this from. But also then in part to our show partners, Keystone Farmers Market, the b and the bear creations and anchor and buzzsprout for your distribution.

Now if you're interested in joining our conversation or you wanna discover our other interviews, check out transacting value podcast dot com.

And remember, you could follow along on social media too while we continue to stream new interviews every Monday at 9AM Eastern Standard Time on all your favorite podcasting platforms. But until next time, that was transacting value.