Emotions have such a complex impact on our decision making and sometimes we're told we should take emotions out of our decision making. And that's actually a terrible idea. Because our emotions help us understand right and wrong.

 

Alrighty, folks. Welcome back to transacting value where we're encouraging dialogue from different perspectives to unite over shared values. Our theme for 20 22 is the character of your character.

 

So who you see when you look your values in the mirror? Well, today, we're talking our December core values of faith, hope, and joy with miss Laura Laduke from JMU here in Virginia. We'll get to her in just a second.

 

First of all, listeners, if you're new to the podcast, welcome. And if you're a continuing listener, well, welcome back. Without further ado folks, I'm Porter. I'm your host, and this is transacting value. Alright, Laura. How you doing?

 

How's life? Life is good. Yeah. You're just getting off work from what I understand? I am. Yeah. A busy day at the university. Full of meetings and interacting with students and Oh, it's back to school season for you, though.

 

It is. Yeah. Yeah. So how's it going now that your summer vacation's over and back to the grind? It's good. I love the start of the fall semester. Everybody's full of energy and excitement and enthusiasm.

 

And, yeah, it's good to be back. You know, I joke about there's this joke about being a college professor, what's the 2 best things about being a college professor, June and July.

 

And there is some truth to that because you get this great flexibility and get to work on projects that you're interested in and to take time off for vacation and things like that.

 

But ultimately, it's it's a little bit boring without the students around, so it's nice to have them back. At least for the first couple weeks. Right?

 

And then Yeah. Exactly. Man. Until the first exam when they're upset with me. Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. I'm I'm glad you're back in your scene or at least working towards it, but back in your element, nonetheless, that's good to hear.

 

That definitely helps a little bit too once you start trying to you know, figure out your purpose after you lose. Yes. Yeah. So I'm sure that counts for quite a bit too.

 

Now, saying that, Laura, I can see you. Right? We're on a video call for anybody listening, but nobody else can. So let's just start with some relatability. Anything you want as in-depth as you wanna get, but who is Laura Laduke?

 

Sure. Well, I'm a college professor and that is a little of an unusual profession, I think. But it wasn't until I worked for a while, and I became a manager that I became completely fast vaccinated with the management of people.

 

I could have a staff meeting and give everyone the same information and they would all react differently.

 

And I could announce a change initiative and 1 person would be excited and 1 person would be anxious and then there'd be all the reactions in between.

 

And we could be implementing a new software and the training that I needed to provide to my employees was for every employee.

 

I had 1 employee that was like, look, just, you know, give me the login information and let me play around with it.

 

And if I have questions, I'll let you know. Yeah. And then I had the opposite extreme as well where somebody really needed a lot of hand holding and a lot of my time to get to the point where she was confident with the new software.

 

And it just fascinated me that people could be so different.

 

And I had always thought that being a manager would be like make decisions and tell people what the decisions are, and then they'll, you know, like, all do things the way I expect them to.

 

But, no, people didn't do things the way I affected them too. I imagine not. Yeah. And so I just became fascinated by this and eventually went back and to school and got my PhD in management.

 

So and specifically in organizational behavior and human resource management, because I wanted to understand people better and how people's actions and behaviors influence the workplace environment and I've been teaching ever since I got my PhD.

 

I've been that's been 15 years now, and I love it.

 

I really feel that I am doing something to make the world a better place because lots of us have had bad managers. Right? Yeah. And so, I teach people about management, and my goal is for there to be fewer bad managers in the world.

 

And so, But my hope is that by teaching students how to be good managers, that I'm getting rid of potential bad managers in the future, and so that's what gets me up in the morning and being able to share stuff that I'm excited about with students and having them get excited about it, that's wonderful as well.

 

Oh, being able to create a passion in somebody. Yeah. It's gotta be a ridiculously fulfilling experience. Yeah, it is. Yeah.

 

And then on the personal side, I have 3 kids and 1 just finished college, one's in high school, and one's in middle school, so we're constantly busy with that. Yeah. Definitely. On top of all your students. Yes. Man. So I'm curious.

 

I went to college, but obviously I don't know about it from, you know, your perspective or from a teaching point of view. But do you have to bring work home with you? Or can you just grade at work, leave it at work, move on with life?

 

I have a lot flexibility in making that decision. I can make that decision for myself if I wanna work in the office or if I wanna work from home. Obviously, there are times when I have to be on campus. Right?

 

When I'm teaching classes, when I have office hours, when I have meetings although some meetings are virtual now now that we're used to that post pandemic, But, yeah, if I wanna take my work home and work at it, you know, from home or from a coffee shop for that matter, that's really up to me.

 

1 of the things that I love actually about this job in addition to this opportunity to I think give back and just try to make the world a better place. And those sorts of things is that I've always been a very independent person.

 

And so being an profession where I have a lot of autonomy and can choose a lot of, you know, how I structure my time and where I choose to work and those sorts of things.

 

That's just a good fit for me. I imagine. And then the flexibility of the schedule, but also a little bit of, you know, how you present the material. That's gotta be nice too. Right? Yes. It is. I do have flexibility there as well.

 

Yeah. Now what do you teach? I mostly teach courses in organizational behavior and human resource management. And for people who don't know what organizational behavior is, it's just the study of how people behave in organizations.

 

It's just like it sounds. But it's basically, it's a lot of psychology and sociology theories. Applied to the workplace.

 

Now then let's clarify a couple terms here. So we're speaking the same lingo. I guess, first off, when you say workplace, you mean like a corporate environment or anywhere people work together? Anywhere people work together.

 

Okay. And when you say managers, good or bad, you're referring to whom. What types of responsibilities? So we use term pretty broadly, it could be someone who's managing people. Mhmm. So they have a staff that reports to them.

 

It could be someone who's managing a project, and so they could be managing that project on their own, but they could be managing that project with others. This could also be an entrepreneur, could be a manager.

 

It pretty broad in terms of we're trying to train students for a broad range of professions where they're essentially in a decision making role in an organization, they're leading teams or leading projects, or, you know, just leading change initiatives, whatever that might be.

 

Okay. Well, then what are your, let's say, Top 3, these are things you need to keep in mind in order to be a good manager effectively manage change within any particular workplace.

 

Okay. Well, first thing I would tell my students, most important thing to know about being a manager is that very frequently, there's not 1 right answer.

 

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Most important thing to know about being a manager is that very frequently, there's not 1 right answer. Oh. And this is troubling for some students who've gotten used to taking multiple choice exams where there is 1 right answer.

 

But Yeah. Oftentimes, with management, there are multiple options, and some are better than others, and some are work than others, and some might be really good, and some might be really bad.

 

And you choose 1, and when you choose that 1 option, you forego the other options, so you never know if he chose the best option.

 

Because you didn't see what happened after making that choice. So, you have to get comfortable with that and get comfortable with this idea that you just need to select a good option.

 

You need to be able to persuade people that it's a good option. Typically, your boss, whoever you're getting to help you with accomplishing that goal or that task or whatever it is.

 

And then you need to be okay with the fact that you might make mistakes And when you realize you've made a mistake, that's the time to adjust.

 

Right? You know, it's impossible to do this job perfectly because there's so many different possibilities.

 

So that's really a big foundational component that we're like I try to teach my students about, to be an effective manager, you have to be comfortable with making decisions knowing that there's not 1 right answer.

 

Yeah. Yeah. So subjective grading scale and fail everybody the first 2 weeks. No. That's not what I do. Okay. Well, maybe I'm not a teacher qualified for a reason, but I feel like our in states would very closely align if you did that.

 

Okay. Yeah. I mean, what you will see though with some of my grading is that I tell the students, you know, there's not 1 right answer.

 

But how well you defend your choice will determine what your grade is. So how persuasive you are But then also how effective you are at pulling evidence, pulling in actual evidence to support your claims or your decision making.

 

So, sometimes we make decisions based on oh, my friends told me -- Sure. -- that this was a good class to take. Right? Yeah. But that's not how you make decisions as a manager.

 

You don't wanna just rely on other people's opinions, you wanna actually do some research, find out information about whatever it is you're trying to make a decision about, entering a new market, do some market research, figuring out which employee is actually at fault when something has gone wrong.

 

Maybe you can't ever figure that out right. Yeah. But don't just make an assumption, try to gather data that supports your decision making.

 

So to that point, have you heard of a book called Moonwalking with Einstein? I have not. Well, so there's 2 books specifically that you made me think of, 1 being moonwalking with Einstein and the other being algorithms to live by.

 

And now today 20 22, I know that might seem like, okay, it's Crypto, it's digital, but it's not. Algorithms to live by, and I can't remember the author of either books.

 

Sorry, guys. But Algorithms to live by is a book about patterns essentially and how to best struck sure your decision making processes for the most efficient outcomes.

 

And efficient and optimal here being similar where your effort and your intended outcome and then your hopes and your desires.

 

And if the sky's the limit money's no object, among those 3 variables, What's the compromised middle ground? So that's the optimal point of efficiency there.

 

But moonwalking with Einstein takes that concept and it's like how many times, you know even Dan Coneman talks about this, but how many times do you circle a parking lot before you decide, I'll just take that spot.

 

And then forgo the fact that there may be better or other or more closer whatever if you circle 1 more time. And that's powerful.

 

Right? But I don't think those types of concepts. Maybe it's a mental capacity thing. I don't know. But I don't think those types of concepts get brought up in elementary school or primary school, probably for good reason.

 

Right? Like just enjoy being a human learning foundations, but how often do you see that being I guess a friction point for students to overcome. We're talking early adulthood. Like, these are college kids.

 

You know? Like, is it a common trend where that's been overlooked? Or what's your feel on that? Yeah. I think more and more, I have colleagues who say that our students need stronger critical thinking skills.

 

And we exist in a system where the case or 12 schools are focused on standardized testing. And as a result of standardized test scores being good, those schools get more resources.

 

And if the test scores are poor, the schools get fewer resources. And so there's an incentive for our k through 12 schools to teach kids how to do multiple choice tests well.

 

There's not an incentive for them to teach this concept of there's more than 1 right answer you know, decision making and complexity, essentially.

 

And so, we find more and more that at the college level, we're spending time with our students trying to develop those critical thinking skills.

 

I imagine there's not really an easy workaround to that either. So you just sort of have to start, I don't know, freshman year and hope. Right? Yes. But to that point, I assume people's personality traits play a huge factor in this.

 

Right? And as I understand it, matter of fact, you wrote a paper, coauthored, I guess, is the right term here. But this was all about personal traits personality traits and personal values.

 

Right? It's a little while back. But do you mind if we jump on that real quick? Sure. Okay. So just to give a little context, I talked about how when I was a manager, I was fascinated by people. Right?

 

And so this research really comes from that place where I wanted to understand people better, understand employees better, And when I started in the PhD program, there's a lot of talk about personality traits as a way to better understand people.

 

And then when I started understanding the research message a little better, I realized that you really, you can predict a little bit with personality traits, but not a lot Yeah.

 

And so I was like, okay. Well, what else? What else? And values became the what else for me because our personality traits, that's sort of our most natural tendencies.

 

That's what we do without effort or intention, without thinking about what we're gonna do, someone who's an extrovert will be extroverted in any situation that allows for them to be extroverted.

 

Right? Mhmm. But What about the introvert that sometimes behaves as an extrovert, sometimes acts as, like, as outgoing and sociable and persuasive.

 

What is it that motivates that person? Already folks sit tight and we'll be right back on transacting value. Alrighty, folks.

 

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Gets you a 20 dollar credit if you sign up for a paid plan and help support the show. 1 more value for your values? Bussprout can do that too. What about the introvert that sometimes behaves as an extrovert?

 

Sometimes act as, like, is outgoing and sociable and persuasive, what is it that motivates that person to change their behavior and adjust their behavior And it turns out 1 of those things is values that we adjust from our traits when it's personally important to us.

 

So, for example, someone who really values environmentalism, but is super introverted might choose to give a speech to colleagues about the importance of recycling and try to persuade them and convince them that this is important, right?

 

That's not a natural behavior for an introvert, but it's something that they might choose to do because of their values. And to me that's just fascinating.

 

Have you found, I guess, in just talking with students or maybe even some assignments that you've given out that these values based decisions are in any particular organizational environment having a larger impact now than maybe, you know, 10:15 years ago or 20 years ago, whatever it is, when you went to secondary or high school or college or any of these?

 

A friend you first got exposure?

 

I don't know that it's really changed over time. I will say that you mentioned sort of organizations, and different organizations have different cultures, and that's just a way of saying that you have different values.

 

Right? And so what organization you belong to impacts or influences your values sometimes, sometimes people have very strongly held personal values and they are not going to change them for their organization.

 

And then if they're in an organization that's a poor fit to eventually leave, Well, conversely, they they might even just have comparably more loose value systems.

 

Right? And then a cap and adjust? Yes. And that is very true. Like, people who haven't really taken the time to figure out what their values are are often more malleable in that regard.

 

And you know, will be more easily influenced. That's not necessarily a bad thing. Hopefully, those influences are good. Right? And sometimes what happens is that people have never really engaged in that self reflection.

 

But when they encounter a value system that they don't agree with, that's when they actually start to clarify their values. It's a moment for them.

 

Okay. Well, so then that, I guess, sort of external locus is just what gives them the stimuli or stimulus to start paying attention to these things or taking more authority and ownership over themselves. That what we're Yes.

 

Okay. I think yeah. I think that's an accurate way to put it. Okay. Well then, I guess what matters then is the what overall integrity of somebody, their thought process decision making capabilities, their I don't know.

 

Societal morals that they perspective, all these factors, right, to make decisions? Yes. But let's you were asking me to be clear about we should clear about definitions. There's 2 different ways to think about integrity.

 

Okay. 1 is to equate it with honesty. And the other is to think about integrity as someone who acts consistently with their values. So Wait. Those are different. Potentially, if you don't value honesty, then Oh, okay. Yeah. Alright.

 

But now how does somebody's overall self awareness impact their integrity then because if they're making decisions that are right or wrong in an organization, either for the culture, for the group think, for the company as a whole whatever or legal or illegal, I guess.

 

If they're making decisions that are right or wrong, And they're not sure where they normally stand or how they would feel about something. Does that impact their ability to manage? Absolutely.

 

So I think you have to have that self awareness, that understanding of what you stand for, what you believe in, what's important to you, or it's like having a firm foundation to stand on and you don't have that firm foundation, then a strong wind is gonna blow you over.

 

It can be easy to be swayed by what the boss says to do. It could be hard to say no to the boss. And it can be easy to be swayed by our peers and what our peers are choosing to do.

 

And unless we have a real clear sense of who we are and what we believe is right and wrong, or what we believe is good and bad, then it's hard to be effective because what happens is as a manager, first of all, you end up making some really bad decisions.

 

Just because someone else told you to.

 

But also, as a leader, people lose trust in you because they realize that you don't you don't stand for anything, you know, you just breeze blowing in the wind, you know, whatever somebody tells you to do, that's what you do.

 

And followers don't like that.

 

They want to know what to expect. They want some consistency from their leader. Well, that makes sense. And that's why I personally, I guess, That's why I really value conviction or identifying people that try to embody that.

 

And then obviously some level of commitment to work with people, you know, I don't wanna work with somebody or force somebody that's all about themselves doing the work by themselves because then I'm obviously not gonna get taken care of in this relationship.

 

But -- Yeah. -- like you said, that could be on any given day. Right? So for example, I may value, I don't know, courtesy or conviction.

 

Let's say, but I've just had a shitty day. So what role do emotions have when we're talking about the integrity of this sort of dynamic in structure as it applies to values? Yeah. That's a really great question.

 

Emotions have such a complex impact on our decision making. And sometimes we're we should take emotions out of our decision making. And that's actually a terrible idea, because our emotions help us understand right and wrong.

 

If we would feel ashamed to do something, if we would feel guilty, if we did something, those are emotions, those are emotional cues that are helping us understand that that is of wrong behavior.

 

And so it's a bad idea to take emotions out completely.

 

With that said, there are certain types of decisions that You don't want to be very emotional when you make them. You want to be thoughtful about them and take time to think through them.

 

And for example, sometimes you could be in a really good mood and go shopping and spend a bunch of money. And then regret it later. Right? It was, like, why did I buy that? I was in such a good mood.

 

And I was in a better mood because I bought things for myself. Right? Yep. That's the kind of thing you wanna avoid in decision making is that, you know, sort of, like, you're so happy you're not thinking through what you're doing.

 

Or conversely, you're so angry that you're making a decision without being thoughtful. So, those really strong emotions you wanna typically avoid when you're making decisions.

 

But these other emotions that are more low key those you kind of have to pay attention to, and they're easier to miss, but those feelings of guilt and shame can help you understand when to avoid a bad decision, and feeling pride and satisfaction about making good decisions, like, sometimes when you're stuck, when you don't know what to do, try to imagine you've made the decision and how do you feel now that you've made the decision?

 

And that's a great indicator of what you should actually do. Imagine if hypothetically you completed some kind of action and then how double hypothetically you would feel if you had done that is what you're saying? Yes. Okay.

 

Alright. But if you're let's just say that that's I don't know. What what we're doing every day we go to work. Like, I am envisioning this is gonna be a good day, and I'm talking myself up and I'm gonna feel great when this is over.

 

And I'm just, you know, envisioning the process as it goes. Is that I guess always indicative of how the day's gonna go. You know, like, am I always really that in control of the potential? And how I respond to something? No.

 

I mean, you can't always be in control of everything that happens or be completely in control of your emotions. What's helpful is to recognize when you should put off making a decision. Oh, okay. I see. Because of your emotional state.

 

So if you're really upset and someone comes to you, and says, I think we should do this. If you can, if you have the ability, it's a good idea to say, I would like to think about this a little bit before I make that decision.

 

And just give yourself time to calm down from, you know, whatever you're upset about. And maybe that takes a day and maybe you have that time and maybe you don't. But if you have the time, take the time.

 

There's a saying and I can't remember what it is now. Top of my head, but it's something to the effect of never eat when you're hungry and never have a conversation when you're angry or something to that.

 

Like, all things in moderation is sort of the point. Yeah. Yeah. Now before we get too far into this, I wanna talk a little bit with you about this, I guess, authentic leadership theory.

 

I wanna talk to you about a few other topics and culture in the workplace primarily, but also what you try to create and emulate as an individual for your own Sure.

 

Inspector sphere of influence, but let's take a break for a couple minutes and we'll be right back on transacting value.

 

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Alrighty, folks. Welcome back to transacting value. I'm sitting here with Laura Laduke, and we're talking all sorts of stuff as it applies to organizational behavior, workplace, culture, personal values, personality traits.

 

Honestly, it's pretty loaded and we could get pretty deep. But for right now, before we get too far into the introduction, Laura, welcome back.

 

Thank you. No problem. You're welcome. Now where we left off though, we were talking about overall being able to make decisions with some sort of I guess structural integrity here.

 

So identifying the right and the wrong decisions to make, the times to make those decisions really the times to make decisions at all.

 

But if you, I guess have a pretty good idea where you stand as a person, your personal values are just naturally going to work their way into your workplace environment because you sort of exude those things.

 

Right? Absolutely. So what does that have to do with authentic leadership theory?

 

Yeah. So authentic leadership theory is a relatively new theory of leadership that basically proposes that you should be authentic. Like it sounds. Right? And what does that mean?

 

For a long time, we had this idea that when you get to work, you kinda take off your personal values, like you're taking off a hat, and then you put on the organizational values, like you're putting on that hat, and then you make all of your decisions based on what the organization would want you to do.

 

Okay.

 

What based on the organization's values and not your own personal values, And authentic leadership theory really turns that around and says, it's much more important to make decisions based upon your own personal values and to behave with authenticity and with integrity.

 

And that actually your followers will be more comfortable with that leadership style, knowing who you are and what you stand for and where you stand that's predictable, it's honest, and that is a way for organizations to thrive.

 

And so, we know that organizational culture often or typically comes from the organization's leader or founder. But as a manager who's been hired into that organization, hopefully you share those values.

 

But to the extent that you don't, that you're working in an environment where you're asked to do things that you don't agree with through acting with integrity and making decisions based on your values will both make you feel better about who you are, it's gonna have a positive impact on your sense of self and your self esteem and your well-being.

 

It's also good for your followers to understand who you are and to understand that you're not going to change and that your behavior and decision making is going to be consistent.

 

Now, that can put you at odds with an organization potentially, which can lead to negative outcomes.

 

Right? And so, part of this gets to this idea of fit that you wanna work in an organization where you at least feel like your values fit pretty well with organizations, so that you can act with integrity.

 

You can make decisions based on your values.

 

Then that's going to be good for you and for the organization and for your followers, for your employees. But that's not always the case. Sometimes you find out the institutional or corporate values after you've been working there.

 

Or unfortunately, sometimes that they don't match what's publicized. Right? You see who's got different priorities and and how it all works out? Yeah. That is absolutely true. And that's a tough position to be in.

 

And, you know, I can't tell anybody what to do in that situation, because, you know, if you're asked by your boss to do something that you don't agree with, but you're gonna lose job and your ability to take care of your family, you know, what do you choose to do?

 

I have actually been in situations where I felt that I had to do something at work that I didn't agree with because I wanted to be able to support my family.

 

Mhmm. And it was a moment for me to look around and say, okay. It's time for me to look for another job. But I know I have a family member who has quit on the spot in a situation like that. And I'm like, oh, I didn't quite do that.

 

Yeah. I found another job first. And so I'm not certainly not perfect in this, and so I'm not gonna judge anyone else. But I do think to the extent that you can act according to your values, you'll be a happier person.

 

I actually was teaching an MBA class and I had a student come to me after we learned about this theory, and he was so relieved to learn that there was a theory that allowed him to be his true self at work.

 

He said he always felt like when he went to work, he was supposed to be the organization's man.

 

And like this idea that he could be himself, it just opened his eyes to these opportunities and potential and this idea that, you know, if you can't be your own self at work, then that's not the right organization for you.

 

And I mean, this 1 thing impacted him so positively.

 

He was just blown away by it, and that's the moment as a teacher that you just lived for. For these, you know, opportunities to have a positive impact on somebody. Oh, I'm sure. Now let me let me zoom you out a little bit.

 

Organizations any organizational structure, organizational behavior, organizational psychology, whatever, as it applies to a group of people, would you say in whatever assessment you're able to make, that there's a parallel or some sort of correlation between corporate America and say I don't know, government work?

 

Yeah. So, I mean, the government is still an organization, and it also has values.

 

For example, I've not been in the military, but what I would infer about the values of a typical military environment is that there's a lot of respect for tradition.

 

There's a lot of national pride. There's a lot of respect for hierarchy and authority. You don't go outside the chain of command. In a lot of respect for team work, team cohesion, you want everybody act together as a unit.

 

There may be in the military less emphasis on innovation and creativity. That would be an organizational culture value that you would find more in an entrepreneurial venture.

 

Right? And so all organizations have their own cultures, but Some are more similar than others just based on the type of industry that they're in.

 

And government tends to attract a certain type of people. Defense tends to attract a certain type of people whose values fit with those organizations.

 

Well, maybe overall, but I think we may slightly differ on that is that's also why recruiters are so good. Because it doesn't always apply to the people they bring in, but somehow they get people to sign up.

 

I think once you start to find out the whether or not, like the DOD, for example, in the US, Once you start to find out that maybe this isn't the organization for you, you've still gotta play on the team because you said you would for 4 to 6 years.

 

And then you can you know, like, there is a certain amount of responsibility and ownership that you've got to take for your own decisions in that regard I'm sure translates pretty well in a corporate environment.

 

But I got a question for you, Laura, where you guys said in your paper, that people make decisions about how to behave not based on the absolute importance of a value, but rather on its importance relative to other values.

 

Now from what you remember from when you wrote that or what it means to you now, in either case, Is that a relationship to your other personal values or the other values of the group you're working within?

 

Yeah. No. That's very much within person. So I've talked about I have this, you know, value, like, this desire to make the world a better place.

 

And I also talked about this desire to have independence. And so if you were in a situation where those 2 values were in conflict, and you had to pick 1 versus the other.

 

Which 1 you picked that suggests that that value is actually more important. Right? And so, our decision making when it comes to values, it's not just, you know, oh, do you wanna make the world a better place?

 

Because everyone would say yes. Right? But it's, you know, how important is that to you relative to all of the other things that you think are important.

 

Oh, I see. So it's still subjective to your own priorities and taxes. Okay. Yeah. Absolutely. Well, so obviously perspective has a lot to play in that.

 

But then that means, I think just by proxy, There's a direct correlation to the culture you're brought up in. Absolutely. We know, for example, that the American culture tends to be very individual sick.

 

And as a result of that, people tend to have different values in the United States versus, for example, Asian cultures tend to be much more collectivistic.

 

And what that means is just that in that culture, there's a lot of emphasis on what's best for the group. And individuals will tend to forego their own personal needs if they can accomplish the needs of the group.

 

So your individual needs are less important than the group's needs. And then the group looks out for you, and so it all works out.

 

Right? So, yes, so the where you grow up definitely has an impact. Now that doesn't mean that everyone from Asia has stronger, you know, collectivist values and everyone in the US has strong individualistic values.

 

Yeah. It just means that if you take those 2 groups on the whole, you'll see that pattern. But then within cultures, you've also got, you learn your values from your parents initially.

 

And so what they thought was important, that's what you learn, and what they thought was important is influenced by the culture that they grew up in.

 

Right? Mhmm. But also, you know, you're going to take what you learn from your parents, and then you're going to be influenced by teachers.

 

And if you go to college, you'll be influenced by your classmates and roommates and friends. And if you join the military, you'll be influenced by that, you know, group of people that you are close with every day.

 

And, you know, if you just go straight into the workplace, you're going to be influenced by the people that you're working with closely.

 

So, our values do have this ability to change over time as we enter new situations and are exposed to new values.

 

But the culture has a big impact overall just because everyone in this culture tends to feel a little bit more strongly in 1 direction or another. Sure.

 

Now have you found, I guess, in your studies or traveling or just life experience? At these influences are more readily assumed, I guess, or absorbed with active participation or just sort of subconscious, passive flowing through life?

 

Yeah. I think I mean, we initially just learned things through a very passive, you know, your parents teach you, it's important to tell the truth.

 

Right? And so you accept that. And then you learn that it's important to be kind to others, and you accept that.

 

And then it's when we're faced with situations that force us to think through which of those 2 things is more important then we become a little more active participants in figuring out what our values really are.

 

Oh, yeah. So your girlfriend says, you know, does my new haircut look good. Oh. And you wanna be honest and kind at the same time, but you can't. So now you're forced to be a little more thoughtful about that process.

 

So we will initially learn them very passively, but eventually we sort of build that internal structure of what we really think is more important through this sort of more active thoughtful process that's, you know, that's brought about by something, some sort of conflict typically.

 

And that's a natural progression of, I don't know, mark of maturity thought process type construct.

 

Right? Yes. So I'm not to say that if that doesn't happen, are there problems, but, you know, if there's not I guess, active role in growing up, then I guess what I'm saying is nobody does this at the same pace.

 

Right? Yeah. You're absolutely right. Nobody does this at the same pace.

 

And I think kinda getting at this idea of if you haven't thought through what your values are, what is a tendency in the United States is to sort of accept this external validation that you're a good person, and that means, like, You're looking for fame.

 

You're looking for money. You're looking for the next promotion because those are external validations that you're, you know, successful.

 

But if you figured out what your values are, and you understand those, and then what happens is you try to act consistently with your values, and that becomes your measure of success.

 

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I look forward to helping you create your custom item. But if you figured out what your values are and you understand those and then what happens is you try to act consistently with your values, and that becomes your measure of success.

 

You know, did I become the person I wanted to be today? Did I bring my best self to work today? Did I do the best within, you know, sort of what I believe to be the best based on my values.

 

And then when that becomes your metric, because you've kind of really thought about what is important to you, And that becomes your metric, you have this ability to be so much more satisfied and happier with your life because you're not chasing these external validations of who you are.

 

Yeah.

 

But that gives you the leeway or I guess the authority then to have a subjective measure for your yourself, your growth. I don't mean like a subjective measure of moral standards in a society necessarily, but for your your own growth.

 

Right? Yeah. Absolutely. But so how do you, in your opinion, measured against your experience, however you wanna answer this? Stack that subjective threshold against unrecognized potential.

 

You know, athletes get coaches all the time because they don't know how good they can be until somebody says, hey, go, you know, run faster, hit harder, work out more, whatever because you can reach further than you expect.

 

How do those come to play?

 

That's a great question. I don't know that I know how to answer that question. I think we all have untapped potential. Right? And yeah. I don't know. You Well, I'll I'll read your next paper in a couple years about it.

 

But You started talking about people and the piece about organizations that we haven't really hit on not to say his sports or athletics specifically, But is those types of teams where, you know, iron sharpens iron.

 

It's not because I realized that I am still first, you know?

 

And there's a I guess another aspect to that too where it's not necessarily potential for betterment, but the potential for Depression anxiety, these others sort of, I guess, colloquially referred to as negative traits that bring you down from your baseline, you know, based on the likelihood of those personality traits, understanding that within an organization whatever that responderance is you've got to account for that too as a manager.

 

Right? Team morale comes for a lot. Absolutely. And if you push people too hard and they become depressed or anxious -- Yeah.

 

And get to the point where they can't function as effectively because their emotional state has actually negatively impacted their ability to get their work done.

 

Now, you've done them a disservice. Or burnout or anything else? Yeah. Absolutely. But what if that's not in your nature? You know what I mean?

 

Like, if you as a teacher I'm not saying you never had a bad day. You're a teacher. Like, I'm sure there's been a couple. But, you know, growing up in your family, nobody really argued Like, you guys got along for the most part.

 

And then you get into a teaching environment and everybody's arguing nobody wants to get along with each other, work together, doesn't like their lab partner or whatever, So like what do you fall back on values to settle conflicts that you haven't been exposed to before?

 

I'm not sure if values are the answer to everything. I think that, though, they can inform what decision you make, Nick, Yeah.

 

So, if you really care about people and you're trying to figure out what's the root cause of this conflict, so that you can resolve it, so that you can have a good relationship with your coworkers.

 

And it may be that they just have this different communication style that arguing is how they communicate. Like, I know people like that. And if you have the ability to be patient and figure out that other person a little bit.

 

I think it can help you understand how to work with them effectively. And, yeah, I think definitely our values can inform how we approach that. But we might be getting into some other psychology theories beyond values.

 

That's fair. I just I just think it's it's interesting because what we've talked about so far is how values can better guide your decisions. Or better -- Yes. -- design a culture in a workplace. Yeah.

 

But like you said, they're not a cure all just because I value honesty or integrity or any other number of values doesn't necessarily mean that that's the right answer in that moment because people or people, and that's a variable I can't contend with.

 

Yeah. Yeah. So I just I don't know.

 

We don't have to get too far into it now, but I think it's an important distinction to say sometimes you've got to supplement your values for the sake of an organization because teamwork has to account for other people's values, not just your own, even as a manager.

 

Right? Absolutely. And, you know, valuing teamwork, that is itself of value. Right?

 

And so if, you know, you might say, like, I really value, I don't know, something else. I really wanna make the world a better place, but the team what the team needs right now is something other than that, and I value the team as well.

 

Yes. I don't think that that's necessarily not a value based situation and Just not your own.

 

Right. Yeah. Or potentially not your own. Right? And just because you maybe don't highly value teamwork, that doesn't mean you're not okay with teamwork. Like there could be situations where, like, I'm fine with doing it.

 

It's not something that's really important to me, but I'm work in a workplace where it is important. And so, I'm going to, you know, try to do what's best for the team in this environment.

 

You might not necessarily have taken that on as something that's personally valuable to you, but it also doesn't necessarily conflict with your personal values.

 

And as long as it doesn't conflict with your personal values, it's not gonna necessarily create negative outcomes for you.

 

You know, after this conversation, I'm starting to gather more and more why this isn't taught in elementary school. Yeah. We teach it's important to be honest in elementary school. Yeah. Start start at the bottom.

 

Yeah. Yeah. It it makes a lot more sense now. But what we're talking about how to help and teach other people. We also mentioned self awareness and so that brings us to the last segment of our show. It's called developing character.

 

Developing character. You wanna play? Sure. Alright. Here's how it works. So it's 3 questions where we focus on your personal perspective and your values spread over time, 3 different times specifically.

 

Now the first question, how do you now view the values that you had as a teenager? Well, I was a teenager. I think most teenagers are a little bit more self absorbed.

 

It's a time for that. And so I really, independence and exploration were really important for me as a teenager, and I just wanted to do my own thing, and I very curious about the world, and I wanted to see different places.

 

And that was more important to me than family or concern for others, which is not to say that I was a horrible selfish person.

 

It's just that that was my first thought was, you know, sort of being able to strike out on my own path, essentially.

 

Yeah. But I imagine that level of awareness or at least critical thought now in hindsight helps a lot with teenage kids now.

 

Yes. It does. And it helps with parenting. Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure it does. Now what we're talking about now, question 2, what are some values you try to embody now? Definitely, concern for others. Yeah.

 

I mentioned that I, you know, have 3 kids and I think that it's difficult to be a parent without having a greater, more heightened sense of the fact that other people rely on you and that you know, 1 of the most impressive things that you can do actually as a human is to raise other humans to be good people.

 

Yeah. And so just, you know, taking care of them and teaching them the important life lessons that'll help them grow up to be good people.

 

That's a really important focus for me. And then, as I've already mentioned, just kind of trying to make the world a better place through my personal career.

 

Everybody's got a a sphere of influence. I think that you can see directly day to day. What we don't necessarily see in my opinion is the non day to day stuff, qualify that how you will.

 

But Like a podcast, for example, I have no idea who's gonna hear this over the next however long it's available and accessible and, you know, until I don't know, USB drives disappear and I didn't upgrade to hologram or something.

 

But, you know, that impact of even this conversation may very well affect everything from the next scholastic paper in 50 years. That wins a Nobel Prize to somebody making decisions on what to do that day and how to treat somebody.

 

So yeah. I I think it's a definite reachable capability, attainable capability to make the world a better place, whether you realize you are or not even just as a teacher, That's dozens of people a day let alone every school year.

 

So I I think you're on the right track for whatever that counts. Thank you. Of course. But question number 3, Now based on all those things, how do you view your values changing over the next 20 years? That's a good question.

 

I do think that importance of making the world a better place. I don't think that that's gonna change. And maybe it even becomes more of a focus once the kids are grown because it is a way to express concern for others.

 

Just, you know, instead of it being my own kids, it's, you know, more broadly others. I still pretty independent. I don't know that that's gonna go away.

 

K. I look forward to once the kids are grown and out of the house and college is paid for, maybe having a little bit of, you know, more opportunity to travel and those sorts of things and sort of getting that exploration going again.

 

But I don't know. It's hard to predict, but I don't think my values will change a whole lot over the next 20 years.

 

Yeah. I I kinda think the same thing where I'm sure there's gonna be some changes because people grow and you mature and perspective shift and whatever.

 

But But all these considered it's like you said earlier as long as you're authentic to yourself, there isn't really much you've got to change or apologize for in the future. So Yeah. Maybe there is some credence to that theory.

 

But either way, I appreciate you taking some time out of your day to answer these questions specific be a little bit more vulnerable and open, especially since we've never actually met before.

 

But I appreciate the opportunity, so thank you. Alright. Well, this has been fun. I love talking about ideas, so this was a great opportunity to do that.

 

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was. I agree. Now for anybody that for any reason wants to reach out to you or, you know, co author another paper or just talk, what options do you have for people to reach out to you, if any?

 

So I am not huge on social media, which is probably not a good thing to say on a podcast.

 

But if anyone wanted to search for me on LinkedIn, it's Laura, LAURA, Laduke, LEDUC. On LinkedIn. So Okay. And I'll I'll hang on to how we've been contacting each other as well.

 

So if anybody wants to reach out to Laura, I can't track her down or doesn't have access to LinkedIn, send an email to survival dead y t at g mail dot com, and we'll reach out and get you guys in touch too then.

 

But otherwise -- That sounds great.

 

-- perfect. Perfect. Laura, again, I appreciate your time. Thanks for taking some time out of your evening and to everybody else. Thanks for listening in to our core values for December of faith, hope and joy.

 

Thank you to well, frankly, moonwalking with Einstein and algorithms to live by for some of your inspiration there, but Ultimately, Laura, to you and your coauthors as well.

 

That's how I stumbled on to these topics initially anyways, just reading your paper.

 

So thank you guys for putting that out. And inspiring the rest of this conversation. But to our show partners as well, Keystone Farmers Market, to be in the bear creations and buzzsprout for your distribution.

 

If you're interested in joining our conversation or you wanna discover our other interviews, check out transacting value podcast dot com And remember, you can follow along on social media too.

 

While we continue to stream new interviews every Monday at 9AM Eastern Standard Time on all your favorite podcasting platforms. Until next time though. That was transacting value.