A Doctor's Journey Through PTSD with Saloni Surah

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Become a Global Ambassador for Self-Worth. Text us your feedback! What is your worth when trauma strips away your identity? Dr. Saloni Surah takes us on a raw, unflinching journey through workplace bullying, stalking, and PTSD that ultimately transformed her understanding of self-value. This powerful episode illuminates the hidden epidemic of workplace bullying in high-pressure environments like medicine, where hierarchical structures and cultural expectations of resilience can normalize toxi...

Become a Global Ambassador for Self-Worth. Text us your feedback!

What is your worth when trauma strips away your identity? Dr. Saloni Surah takes us on a raw, unflinching journey through workplace bullying, stalking, and PTSD that ultimately transformed her understanding of self-value. This powerful episode illuminates the hidden epidemic of workplace bullying in high-pressure environments like medicine, where hierarchical structures and cultural expectations of resilience can normalize toxic behaviors. Saloni's insights reveal how bullying often stems from perpetrators' own insecurities, creating cycles of toxic behavior that institutions are reluctant to address.

(12:01) https://www.wreathsacrossamerica.org/Newsroom/WreathsAcrossAmericaRadio

(24:54) https://porthouse.kw.com/

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An SDYT Media Production I Deviate from the Norm

00:00 - Introduction to Transacting Value

01:39 - Dr. Saloni's Background and Career

06:12 - Experiencing Workplace Bullying

12:05 - The Reality of PTSD and Stalking

21:15 - Finding Healing Through EMDR Therapy

28:44 - Addressing Bullying Culture in Workplaces

37:57 - From Grief to Reclaiming Self-Worth

47:38 - Writing as Healing and Future Work

51:25 - Episode Closing and Resources

WEBVTT

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The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience.

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Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity.

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My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character.

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This is why values still hold value.

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This is Transacting Value.

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I can forgive, but I can't forget.

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I can't sit here, across the table from you, planning services and doing the change that you wanted me to do, but you didn't support me in.

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Today on Transacting Value.

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What is your worth?

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How do you measure it when you have a stalker, when you're bullied, when you have all sorts of traumatic experiences that make you question you, your identity and your own role in life and in society?

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Today we're talking with author and eye movement and desensitization reprocessing therapist, dr Saloni Sarra.

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All about it, her experience and her insight in how to overcome some of these traumatic situations and regain your self-worth in the process.

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I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and from SDYT Media, this is Transacting Value.

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Saloni, how are you doing?

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I'm good thanks.

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How are you?

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I'm doing well.

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I appreciate you taking some time out of your day, or well out of your evening, and coming onto the show, so thank you for the opportunity.

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You're welcome.

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Thank you for having me.

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Absolutely.

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Now you have, in my opinion, a pretty extreme case of reality, right Like.

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You've been through some stuff that I don't think many people have or wish they can, and, unwitting, it sounds like it just happened to happen.

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So let's set the stage a little bit for everybody who's tuning into the conversation and who's watching this.

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That, I think, is an important step before we dive into anything in too great a detail.

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So in the next couple of minutes, who are you, where are you from and what sort of things are shaping your perspective on life now?

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I am a former senior medic, so I was a HIV sexual health physician at that time, working in Dublin.

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I had a PhD in HIV and drug use.

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I my life was very defined around medicine.

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You know, I'm Asian, I live in the UK, I was living in Ireland and it's very much about achieving and doing and you know, being a doctor let's let's not pretend and unfortunately there's quite a bit of sexism in that but I enjoyed my job.

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At that time I was coaching and writing part time and yeah, it happened.

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You know, and it sounds crazy now because I've looked after a lot of crazy.

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I've gone into prisons, you know, I've got stories that I could just regale of my time working.

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But I didn't think it could happen to me some of that and I didn't realize for a long time that I had PTSD and all the things that have happened.

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But I talk about it now because I want to share it, because it is possible to come back and I suppose it's got me to that point of value and self-worth really.

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And when you say you worked in jails and there's quite a lot of things that you could regale you were in jail, like in prison, or what do you mean?

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So we had a service that went out to the prison service and I mean I didn't run that.

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I went out a couple of times.

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As my PhD I ran a service for people with a history of drug use in the methadone clinic.

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So I used to go out.

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I developed a clinic, then I used to go out and run that.

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In the crazy days there wasn't any money so I used to go on the bus with meds.

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You know you did what you had to to get things done, but you know we had a lot of people from all over the world, a lot of people who had um been in and out, of you know, incarceration, prison guards, um patients and wards there are.

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There's a lot of stories.

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You know a lot of crazy stuff, yeah and so, aside from the successes and the achievement that you had, obviously in that field and aspects of building your medical career, did it actually impact your personal life, your professional life?

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It sounds like that's where everything sort of started for you, as a climax and as a shift.

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I don't think the patients did per se.

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You look after individuals like that.

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It takes a toll and I had gone back as a senior clinician, part-time, because I knew energetically that I wanted to do other stuff and that it actually made me a better doctor.

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Um, I think probably some of it was childhood and I was unlucky.

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If I'm being honest with you, sometimes there's just an element of luck or unluck in life and I think I wasn't the only person that has had this happen to them in that workplace or since by some of the individuals concerned.

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But you know, I was unlucky.

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So what is the this that happened, or the aspect of unluck that you're referring to?

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Well, I was quite badly bullied and it was quite insidious and it went on for quite a long time Probably.

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You know, as a doctor you have this element of resilience and putting up with stuff and I think part of that is that the training is an element at times quite bullying and kind of humiliating, and you know, once you've worked so long to get to that point, it's not so easy to walk away.

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So, yeah, I was badly bullied.

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It started really insidiously and it got quite extreme where I had PTSD from an attempted mediation that was basically a verbal attack on me for an hour and I then got physically unwell, which clearly were signs and symptoms of PTSD.

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So sleep issues, weight issues, chest pain, crying at work, work eating a banana a day, I think.

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At the extreme I was probably sleeping two, three hours of a night, broken sleep, um, and then I got stalked as well online and physically and I couldn't get anybody to take it seriously.

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So the suggestions from you know, the guards or um colleagues or employers was that maybe I had sent the letters or that somebody else had done it a neighbor Because somebody had started sending anonymous letters out about me to people like my GP and my employer and my union rep at the time and they knew quite a level of detail about me rep at the time and they knew quite a level of detail about me.

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Well, okay, so when you, when you say bullying it's not like I'm assuming typical schoolyard push you into the locker, knock books out of your hands, kind of thing no, it's, you know, quite emotional.

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A lot of gaslighting by colleagues, um, really insidious.

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So you kind of felt like you imagined it.

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You were being told that you were making it up because you were the more senior individual, that that couldn't be possible.

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That individual was a totally different person to the other people than with me.

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Now, I wasn't the only person in that workplace and, you know, often you'll find with individuals like this, there is a pattern of behavior.

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It's not just start somewhere, it's been going on in workplaces or, you know, schools or families.

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But you know, my part of it was extreme and the impact on me was very extreme.

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Yeah, was very extreme.

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Yeah Well, I guess, in any particular environment where this is taking place and I'm also bringing this up firsthand not quite to the same extent you're describing, and it was it was high school in my case, um, and not necessarily since.

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That, at least I've identified.

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But I started to question am I making this up?

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Am I just being paranoid?

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I mean, did that happen, or what sort of questions were you even asking yourself?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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You know, it started quite innocuous and I remember and I quote this a lot going to a talk by one of the governors, so the chief, the person who ran one of the big prisons in Dublin and he was talking about bullying at workplaces and he said you know, if you're feeling uncomfortable, it's happening, but it's often very challenging to delineate.

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Do you know what I mean?

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And people don't want to deal with it.

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Um, and that that was absolutely it.

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Am I making this up?

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I was being told that I was being too much, that I had said things, I had done things.

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Uh, maybe I had sent the letters, you know, maybe I was making that up that's really harming at the extreme.

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I remember leaving occupational health and I hated going there because just going to the workplace was traumatic.

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They weren't a good doctor, they weren't really interested in helping me and I was so paranoid.

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I remember walking home a different way and there was a shop there.

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I remember pretending to go into the shop and hiding because there was a machine outside it.

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So I pretended to go in, hid behind the machine.

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So if somebody was following me that maybe they thought I'd gone in.

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And you know.

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Walking home then a totally different way again.

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So, yeah, it totally made me paranoid and you know who can you trust?

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Absolutely.

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I mean mean, because at that point it's tough to even trust your own observations that I think that's an important aspect as well, because what we're saying here is that these aren't people giving you criticism and feedback that you're randomly meeting on social media.

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I mean, these are people that you trusted and that you worked with and that you held in, I assume, assume a relatively high esteem.

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You're all a bunch of doctors.

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Oh yeah, absolutely.

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There are people I trusted, people I'd done my PhD supervisors with.

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I mean, one was a friend who warned me at one point that I was going to be scapegoated and then started copying behavior, because when behavior like that goes unchecked or is facilitated or enabled by other people, then other people copy it.

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The whole place becomes inhospitable, um, and really unpleasant and destabilized.

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and that is what happened in my workplace and that's what happens in a lot of workplaces a lot of it gets accepted, it's commonplace, it's harmless, it's dismissed as not a big deal or or whatever.

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And, like the majority of my professional career has been in the us marine corps, so in the dod, the department of defense, I don't want to say that's the norm, because that's not the norm right, but there's sort of maybe romanticizing of those behaviors can be put up with it you know it makes you stronger, there's something, what's wrong with you.

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You're imagining it, just just grow up.

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Or you know I remember you stronger, there's what's wrong with you.

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You're imagining it, just just grow up.

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Or you know I remember being told if you had a family it wouldn't matter so much.

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Or you know you can't change people and I was like I understand, but you can make them be responsible for the way that they are, their behavior is and other people, because I wasn't the only one.

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You know there were other people being targeted, there were patients being complaining.

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You know it wasn't an isolated thing and that's often the case with us, that it's not isolated, there's a pattern.

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Alrighty, folks sit tight, We'll be right back on Transacting Value.

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Alrighty folks, if you're looking for more perspective and more podcast, you can check out Transacting Value on reads across america radio.

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Listen in on iheart radio odyssey and tune in it wasn't an isolated thing.

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Um and that's often the case with us that it's not isolated.

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It there's a pattern and I think that's the difference there, isn't it like it is?

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It is totally plausible, I think, to have this be sort of your whatever joking might be a trivial word here, but but a joking type atmosphere, like it's just the culture of people being people and whatever degrees of maturity in the workplace.

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But I think when a lot of other perspectives start to chime in, it's not a single source reporting anymore now there's corroboration, and I think that's where the line starts to push, uh, or the line of effort starts to push a threshold, uh, where you cross it.

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So you get out of that environment and you start moving through.

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And you wake up the next day and you're like all right, I've got a new job, a new place in society, a new role, new capacity, I'm, I'm better, or what happened?

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It took me a long time and I'm not like you know, it's still steps.

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So I had what was not a great employer, you know.

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I think if you're in the private sector it's different.

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But if you work in the public sector and certainly you know the US, is probably different.

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But you know the uk and ireland, the health services, uh, you know, inbred in a lot of places, inefficient, um, wasting money and they don't want to deal with stuff and there is a culture of bullying in a lot of workplaces so they don't deal with it.

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So there was secondary bullying.

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I had ptsd and didn't know and clearly in hindsight I did um, it's obvious's obvious, but nobody mentioned it.

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So it took me until my first child was born to get it diagnosed, when I became incredibly unwell and I actually moved country when I was seven months pregnant because I wasn't safe.

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And I look at it now going clearly I have PTSD, but the fact that nobody said it and I was seeing a psychiatrist and maternity hospitals and stuff is a bit shocking.

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So when my eldest was probably six months old, I finally got it diagnosed.

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It took me another few months to get it treated and that really transformed my life.

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That treatment was called EMDR therapy and that's a kind of evidence-based tool for PTSD.

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And from then I really started to recover because up until that point I was in fight or flight.

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I was scared of everything, everything was going to go wrong.

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I just, you know, exhausted, you know wanted, you know wanted to be a mom.

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For a long time thought this was going to be my big break.

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I was having much longer for a child, I'd got married, but you know my mindset I was still living in fight or flight, like I was being stalked and bullied, um.

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So that therapy gave me my life back, um, and I started to parent and feel better and put weight on and live again.

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Um had another child and then started to pick up my book.

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So I've been writing for 13 years, um, fiction books and you know, because I've been so well, just hadn't been able to.

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So picked up my books and when my second child was fairly young, I self-published my first book, which is a girl detective book, a funny sassy book.

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I'm going to show it very quickly.

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I'm really proud of it.

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But a funny sassy book, um, flora Investigates the Case of the Missing Gold Eggs and it's really about a girl, you know.

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So I wanted an inspiring role model, healthy female role model, but it was.

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You know.

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It's a girl who wants to be a detective, who wanted to hit the big time, wasn't getting employed.

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So she set up her own agency and found her first case a gold-eyed laying chicken had gone missing and, you know, solved it and flew on a boat and met a lot of cats and met a scary hunter, um.

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And then I picked up my coaching again as well and I retrained.

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So I went on and did my emdr therapy training, um, and that is eye movement reprocessing and desensitization therapy and it's one of the evidence-based therapies for PTSD.

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Can you walk me through what that means, because I'm picturing, follow my finger and look at it.

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Yeah, but what is okay?

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So, as accurate as that might be, what is the correlation to that and any sort of post-traumatic stress?

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yeah.

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So when you have PTSD or trauma, the memories get stuck in the wrong part of the brain, they get put in the wrong place and you end up reliving them and the you know.

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So that's what I was doing.

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I was walking around, feeling scared the whole time, feeling like I was going to be attacked, feeling like life wasn't safe, people, people weren't listening to me and, and you know, I ended up with what was a terrible birth of my child.

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So that you know, it's really quite incredible.

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It is literally like you think about the worst of the worst.

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Obviously you work with a therapist, you work through it, and it is following eye movements, um, fingers or it's, you know, um using hands.

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It uses bilateral brain stimulation to reprocess those memories and to desensitize the somatic symptomology, and it usually takes a few sessions to work, but it is.

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You know, it was incredible in my, in my case, like I went from being seven and a half stone looking at my, my child crying, wanting to be dead, um, feeling terrible because I desperately I love them, I wanted to be there, but I just was so traumatized.

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Which is detached.

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Yeah, just, you know, I mean I, I, yes, probably I was so traumatized that was also a traumatic birth because of the PTSD and that that I, yeah, wasn't as emotional and aware present as I would have liked to have been and, um, you know, I put weight on, I start to make plans for the future.

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The fact that I published a book and that I'm talking to you today is testament to that, because I wouldn't have been able to do that because I was so scared after being stalked and bullied.

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So, you know, I've been on social media.

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I do interviews, I share, I post, I talk about my books, I talk about my coaching, I talk about what's happened.

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I couldn't have done that before because I felt ashamed, like I had done something wrong, like it was my fault and I was still reliving it.

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So that helped me to reprocess that and go oh my goodness, a really terrible thing happened.

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But I'm not living anymore.

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It was terrible.

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I can talk about it.

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I can talk and not cry and not break down.

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I mean I had a blue dress that I wore to that mediation and I couldn't look at it for years.

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It just triggered me.

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Do you know what I I mean?

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Just looking at that blue dress that I'd worn to the mediation, where I'd been so viciously attacked, it was just so visceral that I I couldn't look at it.

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I've worn it, I wear it now.

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I look at it and I'm like, okay, you know, it's just a blue dress again when I ask you, uh, a question about I, I guess maybe ego, uh, and this is coming from a place of curiosity, not judgment.

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Okay, I'm not trying to antagonize the situation, but, um, but I'm curious.

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See, in my experience and in others that I've talked to, the defense or maybe counterpoint has been it's not bullying, like you mentioned, you just got to get tougher, develop a thicker skin, but then me being offended is a me problem, right, which is then more egotistical, I think, than not psychologically speaking.

00:19:33.977 --> 00:20:03.127
And so do you think bullying in general is obviously there's thresholds here, right, but do you think bullying in general is more of a psychological issue due to ego and pride, and then, once it becomes physical, it crosses the line, or humiliating it crosses the line, but initially do you think it's rooted in ego, that maybe that is something we can work through before it gets to that point?

00:20:03.910 --> 00:20:04.913
I think I mean it.

00:20:04.913 --> 00:20:05.974
Why do people bully?

00:20:05.974 --> 00:20:08.327
Usually because they don't feel good about themselves.

00:20:08.327 --> 00:20:09.771
I mean, let's be honest, so let's.

00:20:09.771 --> 00:20:12.528
I mean I've done a lot of thinking and a lot of work on this.

00:20:12.528 --> 00:20:17.969
You know, I also did a uh training on evolutionary meditation, which is like a voice dialogue tapping thing.

00:20:17.969 --> 00:20:22.337
But you know, if you stand back, why do people bully?

00:20:22.337 --> 00:20:33.810
It's usually because they don't feel good about themselves and because they've been bullied or they feel so terrible or they're jealous of somebody, so they do their best to make the that person feel bad.

00:20:33.810 --> 00:20:35.478
You know that that's the crux of it.

00:20:35.478 --> 00:20:37.806
Or they have behavioral issues or personality issues.

00:20:38.808 --> 00:20:50.665
Um, and I know, certainly in this case there was a lot of stuff being taken out on many of us by the individual who had maybe anger issues, rage issues, behavioral issues.

00:20:50.665 --> 00:20:53.152
You know it'd been enabled and facilitated.

00:20:53.152 --> 00:20:59.457
And so I think you know, at multiple points I said, you know individuals need psychological support.

00:20:59.457 --> 00:21:01.404
We can get people in, we can turn this around.

00:21:01.404 --> 00:21:03.990
So I'm not somebody who goes right, there's a problem.

00:21:03.990 --> 00:21:06.395
You're us, you're all not very good.

00:21:06.395 --> 00:21:06.998
I'm leaving.

00:21:07.198 --> 00:21:12.217
I didn't want to do that, I didn't want to not work, and when I went off I said send me anywhere.

00:21:12.217 --> 00:21:15.232
I've taught, taught in the medical schools, I've worked in other hospitals.

00:21:15.232 --> 00:21:16.215
I've been at which clinic?

00:21:16.215 --> 00:21:23.366
I just cannot be here, and at that point I had tried to get people in, external people, in psychologists, in.

00:21:23.366 --> 00:21:25.471
They didn't want to do that.

00:21:25.471 --> 00:21:32.567
That could have totally changed the face of this, you know, and even though you can't change people, you can make them understand that their behavior is not acceptable.

00:21:32.567 --> 00:21:40.575
But I think in the vast majority of cases it's people who don't feel good about themselves so probably ego problem who feel insecure.

00:21:40.575 --> 00:22:04.788
You may feel threatened, um, and it manifests, as you know, being a bully when really they feel small and scared, but they're masking or hiding it, um, in this way I think it's often, always or often quitting the act of bullying or the verbal communication of bullying, where that results in what we're defining as bullying.

00:22:05.150 --> 00:22:14.067
Do you think it's always a witting endeavor, like a conscious driven effort, or is it just more of like a group think everybody's laughing, thinks it's funny, I'm going to do it.

00:22:14.848 --> 00:22:16.432
So I think there's an element of both.

00:22:16.432 --> 00:22:36.896
So I think, certainly for the individual, in my case, I think that the individual that was doing it, it was probably partly conscious, because, you know, if we stand back, I think for a lot of bullies they're not feeling great and they want to feel better, and taking someone down is a great way to do that, and then it becomes a group thing where you know everyone else is doing it, so I'll do it.

00:22:36.896 --> 00:22:41.405
That was my.

00:22:41.425 --> 00:22:43.394
I don't know if I can talk about talk about as my experience, but that was my experience of it.

00:22:43.394 --> 00:22:54.326
Well, yeah, sure, sure, and I guess that's an important point to clarify too, that we're not trying to blanket all aspects or all scenarios that could be involved in bullying, just these two that we're describing right now.

00:22:54.326 --> 00:23:10.922
You know yours and maybe mine, but so if that's the case, then how do we combat that degree of insecurity or maybe a lack of self-awareness for people like them or people that maybe fall in this category as bullies?

00:23:10.922 --> 00:23:17.673
And then, because oftentimes that can just antagonize the problem, yeah, so what's the balance?

00:23:18.404 --> 00:23:21.314
So you know, I think a lot of it does come from childhood or younger.

00:23:21.314 --> 00:23:25.631
Um, in my case, you know I had said so.

00:23:25.631 --> 00:23:26.673
What can you do in a workplace?

00:23:26.673 --> 00:23:34.567
It certainly what happened wasn't great and had they have done some of the stuff I'd suggested, it might not have got to that extreme level.

00:23:34.567 --> 00:23:38.101
Um, you know, I suggested let's get psychologists in.

00:23:38.101 --> 00:23:39.164
People can be supported.

00:23:39.645 --> 00:23:43.054
You know, for anger management, that kind of stuff needs to be done and that can be done.

00:23:43.054 --> 00:23:45.665
You know the whole workplace is starting to turn.

00:23:45.665 --> 00:23:51.105
Um, you know, let's try and nip this in the bud and turn this around, because that's what you want.

00:23:51.105 --> 00:23:51.626
Ultimately.

00:23:51.626 --> 00:24:07.657
You don't want workplaces to be like that because you know people are unhappy people unhappy or traumatized or, you know, dreading going into work, they're not going to perform and presumably nobody wants a workplace like that and then they go home and affect their work lives too, you know.

00:24:07.657 --> 00:24:13.807
And then you know if you're traumatized as a parent, then it's hard not to take that home and pass that on to your child as well.

00:24:13.807 --> 00:24:14.609
Do you know what I mean?

00:24:15.030 --> 00:24:22.987
well, yeah, absolutely so you know, I saw that so much with sexual trauma, um, how that passed down onto children and the impacts of that.

00:24:22.987 --> 00:24:27.647
Um, you know, I think a lot of it probably comes from childhood and not feeling good enough.

00:24:27.647 --> 00:24:30.561
Um, you know, and some of it is personality disorders.

00:24:30.561 --> 00:24:32.248
So you're not going to be able to change that.

00:24:32.248 --> 00:24:47.213
Um, but you know, I think, even if that is the case, just further victimizing the victim or re-bullying them isn't really the way to solve these issues and all it does is it forces good people out.

00:24:47.213 --> 00:24:47.555
I think.

00:24:49.605 --> 00:24:52.134
All right, folks sit tight, We'll be right back on Transacting Value.

00:24:54.365 --> 00:25:00.198
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00:25:46.464 --> 00:25:50.750
Further victimizing the victim or re-bullying them isn't really the way to solve these issues, and all it does is it forces good people out.

00:25:50.750 --> 00:25:52.071
I think you know.

00:25:52.692 --> 00:25:58.400
Yeah, sure, and I think a lot of times specific to being in a workplace or a corporate environment.

00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:03.328
It's systemic, it's not an individual person more often than not.

00:26:03.328 --> 00:26:09.068
Right, occasionally you get a bad hire or whatever, but yeah, that kind of toxic environment happens.

00:26:09.068 --> 00:26:19.817
So then, conversely, how do we foster this atmosphere of resilience and actual training or human intelligence or personal development to combat against this?

00:26:19.817 --> 00:26:24.490
Because, at least in my opinion, the only way you can do that is with some degree of exposure.

00:26:24.490 --> 00:26:29.374
Otherwise there's no basis to qualify anything.

00:26:30.336 --> 00:26:36.534
It's a really good question and I think it goes back to, you know, the culture and the workplaces.

00:26:36.534 --> 00:26:41.001
And then you know, I think it's recognizing I'm out of my depth here.

00:26:41.001 --> 00:26:41.747
I don't know what to do.

00:26:41.747 --> 00:26:48.654
So if that person who had done the mediation with me had gone I'm totally out of that depth, I shouldn't be doing this then a lot of things would have been averted.

00:26:48.654 --> 00:26:50.685
And then you know, people have gone.

00:26:50.685 --> 00:26:51.567
I just don't know what to do.

00:26:51.567 --> 00:26:52.426
Let's get people in.

00:26:52.426 --> 00:26:59.773
So I think if it's gone to that point you really don't know, put your hands up and say I don't know, and get people who do know it.

00:27:00.535 --> 00:27:07.840
And some people sometimes it's psychological support, sometimes it's training, sometimes it's come on, guys, this has got out of hand.

00:27:07.840 --> 00:27:19.291
There's somebody hurt here, not brushing it under the carpet, because people get busy and it's my job and I have a career and money and obviously I understand all of that.

00:27:19.291 --> 00:27:35.794
But when people are getting hurt and it's being repeated because you know I wasn't the only one and I'm pretty sure this has been repeated that's where you've got these patterns of repeating this and where it gets more and more dangerous because you know people have got away with it for so long.

00:27:35.794 --> 00:27:40.872
So you know well what can I get away with this time, or it just gets out of hand.

00:27:42.164 --> 00:27:42.646
Yeah, it definitely can.

00:27:42.646 --> 00:27:49.426
It's obviously the strength in numbers or or the degree of magnetism around the behavior accumulates over time.

00:27:49.426 --> 00:28:25.090
So there's also this stigma, though and again, this is not specific to any particular workplace but there's also this stigma that if I bring this up, it's only going to get worse for me before it gets better for everybody else, and in some cases that's true, but how do we make that either more manageable and palatable for whoever these individuals are that feel the need to bring this up, or, systemically, in any particular industry, address it so that that's not as much a concern?

00:28:25.111 --> 00:28:28.018
and that's a really good question.

00:28:28.018 --> 00:28:30.131
I don't think I have the full answer for that.

00:28:30.131 --> 00:28:41.574
I mean, I think it is about having, you know, leaders or people in those higher positions that have emotional intelligence or at least are open to say look, I'm out of my um depth here.

00:28:41.574 --> 00:28:49.695
You know, I was like that as a doctor if I didn't know something, I have no ego about going, I don't know what I'm doing, I'm going to ask somebody else for advice or, you know, run up against people.

00:28:49.695 --> 00:28:50.907
Do you know what I mean?

00:28:51.128 --> 00:28:57.411
I don't, I don't think it's about knowing all the answers, but I think it's about knowing where the limitations are and looking at those cultures and systems.

00:28:57.411 --> 00:29:01.258
And that takes time, unfortunately, but unfortunately.

00:29:01.258 --> 00:29:04.269
But I'm sure there's, you know, plenty of workplaces that are doing it.

00:29:04.269 --> 00:29:12.328
I mean, like I went to this talk from, like I say, the governor who was running Mount Droid Prison, which is one of the toughest prisons in Dublin, and he was talking about workplaces.

00:29:12.328 --> 00:29:17.972
So if he's talking about it and bullying workplaces, then you know there are people doing it in really tough environments.

00:29:17.972 --> 00:29:18.875
So it is possible.

00:29:21.244 --> 00:29:22.467
Well, that's an important distinction too.

00:29:22.467 --> 00:29:28.978
You were at a prison, so when we say workplace, this isn't like a team of accountants.

00:29:29.878 --> 00:29:50.365
You know, the atmosphere and the tolerance is still, I think, a bit higher than a societal baseline already so I mean you know, that was actually a hospital, so I did I mean, I sometimes did the prison clinic, but that was in the hospital where I was and and, unfortunately, a lot of hospitals.

00:29:50.365 --> 00:29:54.175
You know, um, I don't know whether you read the book adam k, this is gonna hurt.

00:29:54.175 --> 00:30:05.713
You know he talks about that and has those two books about how the medical system and training and the health service is often quite bullying environment and you know it's, it's part of it learning by humiliation.

00:30:06.496 --> 00:30:13.580
Um, it's kind of set up in that way is that a gender specific thing and, and more just, sexist?

00:30:13.580 --> 00:30:16.647
Or is it based on seniority and education level?

00:30:16.887 --> 00:30:26.940
and you're the new guy, I'm the senior student it's a bit of seniority, it's just um hierarchical, it's just, unfortunately, that's the way it is, um which you know.

00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:27.642
That's it.

00:30:27.642 --> 00:30:36.431
The learning sometimes is about kind of humiliation you've got it wrong and also, I suppose, probably like the military, it's a high pressure, high stress environment.

00:30:36.431 --> 00:30:41.488
People are sick, you know um, yeah, people are sick.

00:30:41.528 --> 00:30:48.180
You're doing nights, you're doing unsocial hours there's a lot of sacrifice there, um, and again, I don't really know how that changes.

00:30:48.180 --> 00:31:06.138
I I personally having access to health care more the last few years, I've have found it a lot more unpalatable than I expected, um, with the way that I've been spoken to and treated um and family members, and certainly it's not a way I would have spoken to my patients, you know, um.

00:31:06.138 --> 00:31:18.925
You know, because I think everyone deserves to be spoken to, no matter where they come from and I'm very passionate about that after the medical credit no matter where they've come from, what they've done with a bit of kindness and dignity.

00:31:18.925 --> 00:31:24.355
You know, unfortunately I think that's got worse in the health care but, um, in systems overall.

00:31:24.775 --> 00:32:30.515
Um, you know, hopefully it's a new way of doing business where we actually care for each other and and recognize that being nice in the workplace and treating employees well gets more out of them, which is, you know, better for everyone yeah, it's simple as that it really is and, and you're not far off the mark I can't speak to, you know, the british military, for example, or the royal marines even, but at least in the us, and only in my experience in the us marine corps, that that has been a pretty common vein where the degree of training from any individual in a more senior position, based on time or, you know, by virtue of position and meritocracy, generally comes from what I've considered now more consistently as an inadequate leadership style, but also a relatively discouraged ability or style of communication, because then it just, it is effective and it does get people's behaviors to change, which is the goal.

00:32:30.515 --> 00:32:47.992
And in a high-stress occupational environment medicine, military, whichever there has to be a certain degree of detachment, I think, to be able to function in a high stress environment so you're not as concerned with your own wellbeing, for example, you're more focused on somebody else's Well.

00:32:47.992 --> 00:32:57.979
That requires some detachment and I think in that training pipeline what tends to happen then is a relative degree of embarrassment along the way or whatever.

00:32:57.979 --> 00:33:10.469
I think the threshold and I can't speak to medicine as an industry, but in the Department of Defense at least I think the threshold is building it back, the camaraderie around.

00:33:10.469 --> 00:33:13.746
Yes, everybody went through it, but it's not sustainable in that environment.

00:33:13.746 --> 00:33:21.114
What it becomes then now is a point of leverage as a common point of reference to say that's what it feels like Now, you know.

00:33:21.114 --> 00:33:27.826
So here's how we build back, encourage some degree of discipline or camaraderie or whatever needs to happen as a result.

00:33:28.709 --> 00:34:04.707
In a sort of more individualistic sense, I think, when we start to question our positions, like you mentioned in yours, it's difficult to sustain that kind of growth in any environment, even if it's encouraged to build back and develop resiliency or discipline or whatever, and so my working theory is that it gets rooted in a value system, I think, and that gives us something we can latch onto, because it's an internally driven metric that isn't required to be validated by somebody else's opinions, and so this is a segment of the show called developing character.

00:34:04.707 --> 00:34:07.952
D D D, developing character.

00:34:07.952 --> 00:34:33.911
Now it's two questions, and for clarity and full disclosure, as vulnerable as you prefer your answers to be, is totally cool, but it's rooted in two time periods, because I think some of this is nurture and I think some of this is nature, and so my questions are what were some of your values growing up or that you remember being exposed to as a child and then now being older in life.

00:34:33.911 --> 00:34:35.356
What are some of your values now?

00:34:37.106 --> 00:34:38.211
You know it's a very funny one.

00:34:38.211 --> 00:34:42.371
One of my colleagues would say, saloni, you've always got to do the right thing.

00:34:42.371 --> 00:34:43.994
It just crucifies you in justice.

00:34:43.994 --> 00:34:51.947
And so I am somebody who is going to speak out and say, no, this is making me uncomfortable, or no, I don't like where that person's being spoken to.

00:34:51.947 --> 00:34:55.135
Or you know, I've had arguments with adopters.

00:34:55.135 --> 00:34:57.530
When they've gone, you're patients and I'm like what do you mean?

00:34:57.530 --> 00:34:58.192
My patients?

00:34:58.192 --> 00:35:00.826
You know they may have HIV patients.

00:35:00.826 --> 00:35:01.447
And I'm like what do you mean?

00:35:01.447 --> 00:35:02.251
My patients, you know they may have HIV.

00:35:02.251 --> 00:35:02.733
They may be a prisoner.

00:35:02.733 --> 00:35:04.300
They're still entitled to care and still entitled to be spoken to.

00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:11.347
Okay, but if that you know, if they're being rude or aggressive or using, then they also need to know that's not unacceptable, not acceptable.

00:35:11.347 --> 00:35:14.331
Um, so I suppose those are my values.

00:35:14.331 --> 00:35:17.418
Um, I think part of its nature and nurture.

00:35:17.418 --> 00:35:20.590
So some of that I was inbred with, but I've already already touched on.

00:35:20.590 --> 00:35:26.927
You know, I come from a family where there is inherent sexism and there's a lot of stuff we don't talk about.

00:35:26.927 --> 00:35:29.952
And again, I won't do that.

00:35:29.952 --> 00:35:33.987
So you know I'm not going to sit there and pretend there's not domestic violence going on there.

00:35:33.987 --> 00:35:37.092
I'm not going to pretend that I'm okay with it.

00:35:37.092 --> 00:35:38.193
Do you know what I mean?

00:35:38.193 --> 00:35:39.536
Even if that's the way it is?

00:35:39.536 --> 00:35:41.458
So I think you're right.

00:35:41.458 --> 00:35:42.260
I think it's a bit of both.

00:35:43.445 --> 00:35:59.556
So what do you think is an effective mechanism or option to maybe, at a baseline level, develop that degree of awareness and realize you do have some control over your perspective and your outlook and your responses and then, secondarily, do something about it?

00:35:59.556 --> 00:36:11.088
In the workplace or as an individual well in an individual in a workplace, but as an individualized style of control or a control point again.

00:36:11.148 --> 00:36:19.431
I think it partly does go back to the nature nurture and it you know if we're talking from a coaching point of view is at what point you hit that pain point and go.

00:36:19.431 --> 00:36:29.550
I'm not putting up with this anymore and you're either forced to do something or, um, you know you make that decision and I'll be brutally honest to my situation.

00:36:29.550 --> 00:36:32.516
I was kind of forced because I became so unwell.

00:36:32.516 --> 00:36:34.606
I just couldn't physically do it anymore.

00:36:34.606 --> 00:36:38.092
I think, again, it goes back to values and who you are.

00:36:38.092 --> 00:36:45.728
So through all of this you know all the stuff that happened to me I kept on going.

00:36:45.728 --> 00:36:46.813
There must be better.

00:36:46.813 --> 00:36:51.333
You know I'm not going back and it would have been easier to have gone back to my workplace.

00:36:51.333 --> 00:36:54.251
I would be earning far more money, life would be a lot easier.

00:36:54.251 --> 00:37:05.096
But I was just like there's no way I can return to a workplace, that this has happened, where people have facilitated it, who I trusted, where people have hurt me, where they made accusations about me.

00:37:05.096 --> 00:37:07.411
I just can't sit and look at you.

00:37:07.865 --> 00:37:09.271
I have a deep forgiveness practice.

00:37:09.271 --> 00:37:18.853
I have a deep spiritual practice and I've done a lot of forgiveness at multiple points where I've literally worked through everyone in my life and I can forgive, but I can't forget.

00:37:18.853 --> 00:37:28.197
I can't sit here across the table from you planning services, um, and doing the change that you wanted me to do, but you didn't support me in.

00:37:28.197 --> 00:37:29.467
Do you know what I mean?

00:37:29.467 --> 00:37:31.793
Um, you know.

00:37:31.793 --> 00:37:42.710
So part of it is I'm a square in a circle hole because I see things in different ways and I, you know, try to bring in change and people don't like that.

00:37:42.710 --> 00:37:53.027
Part of it's like my value system is saying I'm just not going to force myself back into somewhere where it's really unpleasant for me All right, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

00:37:55.472 --> 00:38:00.532
Are you stuck in cycles of unhealthy relationships, wondering if you're the problem or if they are?

00:38:00.532 --> 00:38:14.989
On this episode of Transacting Value, licensed professional counselor and relationship coach, Dana Nygaard shares her shocking journey from abuse, trauma and two battles with self-worth, healing and love.

00:38:14.989 --> 00:38:23.168
What's most jarring, she didn't even recognize the abuse while it was happening, until her own clients started showing her the mirror.

00:38:23.168 --> 00:38:39.257
Through raw honesty and grace, Dana reveals how she reprogrammed her identity over 90 days, moving from insecure to secure attachment, now helping women across the country find clarity through her book Be Smart, Date Smart.

00:38:40.141 --> 00:39:03.282
If you've ever questioned your value after being torn down, this episode will show you how to reclaim it part of it's like my value system is saying I'm just not going to force myself back into somewhere where it's really unpleasant for me in standing on what it is, the uh, you know view as our own worth or or our own value, for example, in a particular environment, it's a lot easier than to identify.

00:39:03.362 --> 00:39:25.608
I don't fit here the square in the round hole, for example, yeah, but in doing that, I think we still individually owe it to ourselves to be able to reconcile that, like you said, I could be making more money, I could be doing other things like these potential, uh, maybe other success metrics now change.

00:39:25.608 --> 00:39:28.193
So how do you make peace with that degree of acceptance?

00:39:29.463 --> 00:39:30.626
it's been a long road.

00:39:30.626 --> 00:39:37.592
You, I'll be honest, I did a Facebook post about grief being a dirty word and how it was like a part of me had died.

00:39:37.592 --> 00:39:45.172
I mean for me probably, like you, I started medicine when I was like 16, 15.

00:39:45.172 --> 00:40:03.400
All the stuff to get in the training, my friends, sacrifices, getting and getting married older, having children at a later age, and how I lost it all and it, you know, it is like a part of me died and I didn't know who I was and it.

00:40:03.400 --> 00:40:10.646
There's been an awful lot of grief, of letting go, of shedding of who am I, because my entire identity was tied up in that.

00:40:10.646 --> 00:40:17.195
You know part of that was, you know, like you say, a job that, like medicine, military, are all consuming.

00:40:17.195 --> 00:40:26.306
Part of that was kind of I was expected of me and you know, if I'd had a different upbringing I might have gone being more creative at an earlier age, but that wouldn't have been okay.

00:40:27.168 --> 00:40:29.882
Um, you know it's not been the easiest thing in the world.

00:40:29.882 --> 00:40:30.704
You know I've done lot.

00:40:30.704 --> 00:40:35.534
I do a lot of self-development and I'm working for it.

00:40:35.534 --> 00:40:37.807
You know I did a lot of EMDR.

00:40:37.807 --> 00:40:41.527
I've done a lot of coaching and work on myself.

00:40:41.527 --> 00:40:44.706
I write, which is really healing.

00:40:44.706 --> 00:40:52.226
And you know I talk because I think it's important to talk about these things, and I'm not the only one going through this.

00:40:52.226 --> 00:40:54.188
There's plenty of other people out there who are going through this.

00:40:54.188 --> 00:41:05.525
Stories may be different, um, but you know grief comes in different ways, um, you know, and asking for help and support, but you know, it's not been the easiest thing and I'm going to be honest about that.

00:41:05.525 --> 00:41:06.704
My life would be much easier.

00:41:06.704 --> 00:41:11.056
I'd be in a much bigger house, um, things would be different.

00:41:11.056 --> 00:41:13.907
It's like I've worked to get to this point and I'm starting again.

00:41:13.907 --> 00:41:24.813
You know, uh, you know, with my writing and coaching and, um, you know it's great, but I not where I thought I would be, and you know that's that's.

00:41:25.181 --> 00:41:27.592
That's sort of the practical point about it too, isn't it?

00:41:27.592 --> 00:41:37.623
I mean professionally, maybe starting over maybe a new industry relatively to, relative to were, but personally you're on a totally different level now.

00:41:37.623 --> 00:41:55.668
You know what I mean, and all of the strength and acceptance and ownership that you built along the way, in spite of the vulnerability, and then the authenticity now that you bring into your practice and just it sounds like, into your daily life as a result totally changes, I think, the entire equation.

00:41:55.668 --> 00:41:58.934
I mean, it's not, it's not starting back from zero.

00:41:58.934 --> 00:42:12.132
You know, it's like a some sort of linear periodization where all you've really done is deloaded, you haven't reset, and I think that's a super important distinction yeah, thank you.

00:42:12.233 --> 00:42:15.947
I mean I, um, you know I wrote this really fun book I have.

00:42:15.947 --> 00:42:18.251
I've been trying to um my fairy book.

00:42:18.251 --> 00:42:23.862
I've got a fairy book which is a middle grade book and it was supposed to be a fun fairy book, you know, because fairies are fun.

00:42:23.862 --> 00:42:32.990
And then I realized I was writing about fairies having their wings clipped and then I was like, oh my god, this is my bullying in here, you know, and forgiveness, and getting wings back.

00:42:32.990 --> 00:42:44.713
And you know, and I was like, but you know, in some way it happens to us all at some point in life that we get our wings clipped off and by people that we love or we've trusted, and how do we get that back and get our forgiveness back?

00:42:44.713 --> 00:42:46.981
And I mentioned the Adam Kay book.

00:42:47.302 --> 00:43:08.273
Um, you know, about five years ago I had started writing this book about medical memoirs and some of the challenges of you know night shifts and you know really basic things about not even being able to go to the toilet and if you're a lady and it's a certain time of the month not having time to take care of things, and I just couldn't write it for a long time.

00:43:09.422 --> 00:43:13.012
I picked it up again this year and a book on bullying as well.

00:43:13.012 --> 00:43:18.893
So I think also there's some of that into turning it, into alchemising it, into helping other people.

00:43:18.893 --> 00:43:22.329
You know that's what I want to do that.

00:43:22.329 --> 00:43:29.630
So you know I wrote a fun book, but it's a book about a girl who has a dream and who's going for it a bit like me.

00:43:29.630 --> 00:43:31.971
But I also looked after so many adults who were literate and who's going for it a bit like me.

00:43:31.971 --> 00:43:55.382
But I also looked after so many adults who were illiterate and who couldn't read or write and you know, when you're doing quality of life questionnaires on them and substance misuse questionnaires on them every six months you get fairly quick at asking them that but who probably grew up in homes where they're working on sheets and needles and probably nobody told them that they were worthy and they could do anything and, um, you know generations of substance abuse.

00:43:56.164 --> 00:44:13.387
You know I wanted to inspire kids because not every child has that that's absolutely true, and I think, in that regard, maybe we're both doing the same thing, maybe a different medium, yeah, um, but all things considered, instigating self-worth, and so I guess, for the sake of time, I really have two other questions for you.

00:44:13.387 --> 00:44:25.835
All of this being said, all of these experiences, what is it actually done for your own sense of self and self-worth now as a result?

00:44:27.143 --> 00:44:29.788
so the really funny thing is it's an awful lot stronger.

00:44:29.788 --> 00:44:34.806
I didn't think you know, I you know, and also as a medic, you give, you give, you give.

00:44:34.806 --> 00:44:46.780