Make Peace or Die: Honor the Fallen

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Become a Global Ambassador for Self-Worth. Text us your feedback! What does it mean to come home from war when so many never will? When Anthony Marquez returned from Afghanistan in 2011 after losing 17 brothers from his battalion, he carried more than memories – he carried a mission that would take years to fulfill. "Make Peace or Die" tells the extraordinary story of one Marine's journey to honor fallen comrades through art and remembrance. Five years after deployment, Anthony began cr...

Become a Global Ambassador for Self-Worth. Text us your feedback!

What does it mean to come home from war when so many never will? When Anthony Marquez returned from Afghanistan in 2011 after losing 17 brothers from his battalion, he carried more than memories – he carried a mission that would take years to fulfill. "Make Peace or Die" tells the extraordinary story of one Marine's journey to honor fallen comrades through art and remembrance.

Five years after deployment, Anthony began creating intricate chainsaw carvings for Gold Star families, transforming raw wood into living memorials. What began as personal healing evolved into something far more profound when he and his filmmaker brother Manny embarked on a 12,000-mile journey across America to document these families' stories.

https://www.pbs.org/independentlens/documentaries/make-peace-or-die-honor-the-fallen/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du3Og3srq4I

https://makepeaceordiefilm.com/

Make Peace or Die: Honor the Fallen

A veteran uses hand-carved battlefield crosses to reconnect with families of fallen, fellow Marines.

(14:30) https://porthouse.kw.com/

(27:39) https://www.wreathsacrossamerica.org/Newsroom/WreathsAcrossAmericaRadio

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An SDYT Media Production I Deviate from the Norm

00:00 - Introduction to Transacting Value

01:09 - Meet Anthony and Manny Marquez

04:35 - The 17 Chainsaw Carvings Project

09:01 - Understanding Memorial Day and Gold Star Families

15:19 - Anthony's Experience in Sangin, Afghanistan

22:32 - Processing Trauma and Healing with Allie

31:46 - Value Systems and Continuing to Serve

37:11 - Making a Documentary About Gold Star Families

44:35 - The Mission to Tell Their Stories

50:25 - Impact and Distribution of Make Peace or Die

56:00 - Closing Thoughts and Resources

WEBVTT

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The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience.

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Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity.

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My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character.

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This is why values still hold value.

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This is Transacting Value.

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Almost 13, 14 years later Make Peace or Die comes out.

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Millions of Americans do know the name of Robert Greninger because Anthony heard that challenge from General Savage at his memorial, saying he died for millions of Americans will never know his name and Anthony thought I'm going to change that.

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All right, guys, welcome back to Transacting Value.

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Today we're talking about guilt and coping and what it means to move through a kinetic warfighting environment physically and then, after the fact, mentally.

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More importantly, how do you help families, friends that are gold star status, move through and process just the same to reintegrate back into society?

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We've got an awesome opportunity here today where we're talking with Anthony and Manny Marquez, the male lead and the producer for the documentary called Make Peace or Die, about One Five's deployment in 2011 to Afghanistan, and we're going to talk all about it.

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So, from SDYT Media, my name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and this is Transacting Value.

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Guys, what's going on, anthony, manny, how you doing.

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How you doing today.

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Good, how are you Good?

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Good Look, I appreciate the opportunity.

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You guys make it some time in your day.

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I know you don't have a whole lot, but I assume you're not like local celebrities.

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Or has this documentary skyrocketed your status?

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How's life so far?

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We're big in Japan.

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No, you know, I mean people know who we are because the movies had a good reception here in Tulsa and in Oklahoma.

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I played about five times at our local art house cinema.

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You know we've had a lot of support from the Tulsa film office, uh, tulsa film and music office, um, and then from our local OETA, which is our PBS station here, promoted it last year, hosting uh broadcast party for us, uh, with with the Tulsa film office.

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So you know, I mean I wouldn't say we're celebrities, but we've had a lot of support, community support, from for the film.

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Do you feel like you had that before you made this documentary?

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And, manny, you were the director, the producer.

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What was your role?

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Yeah, director.

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Director of the film and do you feel like you had that kind of community support before you made it?

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I mean?

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I mean me, and Anthony could answer that more.

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You know he's been.

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I was away for about 23 years and he was here.

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So, yeah, uh, yeah, I mean so with the chainsaw carvings, you know, here in the local area of tulsa, uh, the local news channels have done multiple stories on that and just different, uh, just different ways that I've been involved with uh different veterans and so, yeah, I guess there's been.

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The community has always been supportive of what we've done and what I've done with the carvings throughout this area well, okay, but so you made the carvings during the production phase of the documentary right?

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I actually did the carvings in 2016 to 2019 and I continue to do them.

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I've done 82 of them up to this point, but I started doing them in 2016, and so from 20 july 2016 to may of 2019, that's when I originally donated all the carvings to the 17 gold star families.

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We didn't start the film until uh may of 2021 oh wow, so you just happened to get b-roll footage while you were making them, or was that?

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We had made a short film called 17 Carvings about the creation of the carving for Joe Jackson's family and that we had that footage and then we had footage of him doing other carvings.

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So the way we built that in the movie was using that short film and using footage from the other carvings.

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But the carving of the, his mission, took place actually before the movie.

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Yeah, cool wow okay, and movie magic, you know yeah yeah, absolutely.

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That was kind of one of the premises of actually making the movie is what the families told me when I delivered the carvings to them um, they all said similar thing of how their son.

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They didn't want their son to be forgotten.

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So we decided the best way to do that was make a feature film to give the families a voice, and that's when we decided to make the movie.

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Okay, well, so let's talk through that a little bit Now.

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Obviously, as we're recording this right now, it's basically Memorial Day, weekend, memorial Day, timeframe of year, and there's, I think, on one hand, a lot of misrepresentation and ignorance around Memorial Day, maybe even the difference from that to Veterans Day, but also, from a firsthand perspective, what it means to have any sort of relationship with a Gold Star family.

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So can you walk me through that dynamic a little bit Memorial Day, veterans Day, some differences, gold Star families, and we'll just set the tone, what that is.

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You know, Veterans Day is for anybody who served.

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It's not for active duty, it's for veterans.

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The individuals who signed up, served, fulfilled their contract, were honorably discharged from the military or retired.

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So that's, you know, that's what Veterans Day is really around.

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And then Memorial Day is really built around memorializing, remembering the ones who gave their life in the service of the country.

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So those are the two distinct, you know, factors with Veterans Day and Memorial Day.

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We want to highlight Gold Star families all the time, but really, you know, they're entwined with what Memorial Day is.

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This movie originally had a Veteran Day release on PBS last year, november 11th, and it was great.

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We wanted to get it out as soon as we could and that was a great thing.

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We had 1.3 million viewers in the month of November on PBS last year and they came back to us this year and said hey, you know, this is such a great fit for Memorial Day and honestly it's a better fit for Memorial Day because of the nature of remembering the fallen and the Gold Star families that we agreed to bring the movie back on Memorial Day, and so I've just been so pleased with the outpouring so far this year.

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In the last week, you know, talking to people like you other podcasts, radio shows, news, news organizations, people really grasping what it means to remember the fallen and when you remember the fallen, you just don't remember them.

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You remember their families, because their families are still here dealing and surviving and healing, because their families are still here dealing and surviving and healing.

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And so the real impetus for the movie was to create a space for empathy that we could remember our Gold Star families.

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We've never seen a movie about Gold Star families, and so we saw a need to fill that void with Make Peace or Die.

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Okay, and the title?

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Then I initially thought it was like introspective.

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You know, like get it together or it's just going to eat you alive.

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You know the grief or resentment or survivor's guilt, anthony, was that a factor through the process or entitling the documentary?

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Yeah, manny's the one that came up with.

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Like there's multiple ways that people can perceive the title.

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Make Peace or Die is the motto for First Calumet, fifth Marines, and so when we're, you know, active duty, we're getting ready to go on a deployment.

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You know that's our motto Make Peace or Die.

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We're pretty much talking to the enemy, that we're telling them be peaceful or we'll kill you, kind of aspect.

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We're telling them be peaceful or we'll kill you, kind of aspect.

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Well now, after we're out, there's a different way that people can perceive that, view it.

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And you know you have to make peace with the things you saw, did, were involved with or, over time, it could kill you.

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And I, you know, and we fought to keep the name Make Peace or Die because PBS wanted us to change the name to about 15 different things.

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But at the end of the day it's so entwined with the story and the families and the marines and everybody who served it, just it just had to be that.

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So we added honor the fallen at the at the back end of it.

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So it's the title is make peace or die on the fallen.

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But we still go by, just make peace, die.

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I mean.

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I mean it just takes on different meanings when you, when you're in a time of war, it's like you make peace or die.

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You tell the enemy make peace or die.

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When you come home, you have to make peace or you will die.

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You know and like, and these families, the mission is never over, right, it just changes.

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And so, like that was what it came to me when we're making the movie, I said I told anthony, I said make peace or die.

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You have to make peace or you will die.

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These families have to make peace or they will die.

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It's eating them alive, and so that's the title.

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It's kind of interesting.

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When we did the spanish language translation for pbs, it was really interesting approving these translations, because the the phrase means different things and in english it's easier to catch the nuance, but in other languages it's harder, and so and so like Make Peace or Die was actually said like three different ways in the Spanish translation, because every time they said it it meant something different.

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Throughout the movie.

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Yeah, yeah, it actually changes the translation if you watch the Spanish subtitles, because the way we nuance it in English is hard to understand in Spanish.

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Anyways, I'm on sidetrack, but you know?

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Well, not necessarily as tangential as you might think.

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Because when we're talking about context, it's difficult as a storyteller on a podcast or a documentarian or a first-hand experiential let's say, service member individual, to be able to convey any of those lessons or perspectives or opportunities or insights or whatever to any other generation, let alone anybody else who just wasn't there.

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It's like trying to read a fiction book and teach somebody what it's like to be stranded on an island who's never left the United States.

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You just can't convey that stuff.

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And so when we're talking about context, I guess, anthony, in your case, what's it like in Sangan?

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Now, I deployed to Helmand, I was in Marja, but I didn't go to Sangan, and it is still a different environment between the two.

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So what was it like?

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Was it everything it was hyped up to be on the news and explosions everywhere and high stress and second-guessing every step?

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Or was there a little bit more humanity and you know, just a different way of view in the world?

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What's your take on the environment?

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I mean I think it was a little of all that.

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Um, you know, I, to be honest with you, I didn't watch a lot of news leading up to going on the deployment, but we were getting the updates from three, five, so that was like the real time updates from the marines on the ground, the unit who we were replacing.

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So and it was, it was brutal.

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The updates were brutal.

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You know another, they had multiple Marines killed, multiple Marines amputees, you know casualties, so it was like that weekly.

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So I think, like you said, like you mentioned, it's a little of all of that.

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I mean there's humanity in, like you mentioned, it's a little of all of that.

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I mean there's humanity in everything, there's beauty in everything, like there's the sunset, there is beautiful.

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You know like it's hot.

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So I had never been to combat before that deployment.

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I was with security forces the first three years of the Marine Corps so I did two non-combat deployments with them and I went to Cuba and Spain and Israel with different fast platoons.

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So that was my first experience with combat and I don't know how to explain.

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It's just when you get in that environment it just life becomes real because it's so fragile yeah, it was the same thing with us.

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I think maybe half of our patrol they were all partnered.

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But I think maybe half of our patrol they were all partnered.

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But I think maybe half of our patrols were dismounted on foot and half were mounted in a vehicle, and then I was a turret gunner whenever we were mounted.

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So it it, it really.

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Yeah, the fragility is a good way to put that.

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It really did crystallize it and sharpen it, and I don't know if it was just because, you know know, there was just months on end of endless adrenaline, or not endless.

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I guess we crashed pretty hard every day, but, you know, finding ways to process through that and then reintegrate.

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Obviously, in your case, though, uh, especially with one five and, for the record, while you guys were in sangin, I was just getting to marja.

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I was with first tanks at the time, but, yeah, still same same time frame, 2011 but what we're talking about getting situated and sort of reintegrating and processing you guys had, well, 17 casualties in five months.

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Yeah, that takes a toll.

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What was it like in in those five months?

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You still had to get up and you still had to go back out, but then also, when you got back to process and sort of make sense of the world.

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So I say in the film, uh, that you really don't have time to grieve when you're in combat.

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I feel like you just have to, you, you kind of have to accept the environment you're in to be able to function and then just, I mean, go with the flow, accept that you could be killed, you could get blown up, you could, you know, see your friend get killed.

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You have to be able to accept these things life altering or life ending, uh, instances that could happen any, any, at any point in any day and to be able to function.

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So it's, it's just when, when you come home, is when you can actually start to process and grieve, grieve all, uh, what you experienced and what you went through.

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So three, five had 25 Marines killed and we came in and replaced them.

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We had some, so we already knew we were going into something that was pretty bad.

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And you know, like I said, I had no combat experience outside of that, and a lot of guys in our platoon and in our unit they were pretty green too, they didn't have.

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They might've went other places, but they had no combat experience.

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And so it was.

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All right, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

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00:15:20.042 --> 00:15:26.912
It was all new to me, you know, but you have to get accustomed to it quick to be able to function.

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What did that kind of I guess, intentional distancing or detachment or I don't know cognitive dissonance?

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I mean like you had to learn that on the fly and then adopt it as a perspective and then try to drop it when you got home to go to you know whatever get groceries?

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Like how do you, how do you reconcile that kind of and then adopt it as a perspective and then try to drop it when you got home to go to you know whatever get groceries?

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Like, how do you, how do you reconcile that kind of distance?

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They say the military and the Marine Corps.

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They teach, they, you go through all this training, you go through you know, uh, you know, like building clearing, you do just all kinds of ranges, everything.

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They train you to go to combat and do the job, but then they don't.

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You're not, you're just young kids pretty much.

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You don't know how to process that.

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So when it happens, you just every everybody's different, they process it differently.

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Uh, and then, and then when coming home too, some people could just turn it off, some people can't.

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And then there's an aspect of some people come home and then they stay in the Marine Corps for another five years and they do two more deployments.

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So they're still around the environment of the military and the Marines who were with them.

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And then, like me, I got out five months after getting back from Afghanistan.

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So we got back in October of 2019 and I got out of the Marine Corps March of 2012.

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So and then, even then, I had my dog that I had on the deployment came back and she was gone within 30 minutes of being back in the States and I didn't think I'd see her.

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And then you know.

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So it's just.

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I don't know.

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I think it's just everybody processes it differently.

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I don't know, I don't, I don't know if you can be taught that.

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Yeah, I mean maybe there's a lot, lot.

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That's why there's counseling and therapists to help you figure things out.

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But well, it's a different subculture, I think in the united states at least.

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I can't speak to other countries, but I've I'd wager to bet it's pretty similar to other militaries and service members as well.

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But but it's a subculture, it's a psychographic that's difficult to describe and that was one of that scene.

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That was your dog, right, yeah, that's the dog.

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Yeah, that scene in the in the movie when you guys had to put her down, what happened?

00:17:33.324 --> 00:17:47.441
so I adopted ally in 2014 and um, so when we landed back in 2011, the company that contracts with the government, their civilian company they, they took her and took her back across the States and retrained her and put her with another handler and she did three more deployments.

00:17:47.441 --> 00:17:54.307
Well, in 2014, the program that the Marine Corps had, the IDD program that that, uh, obama did away with that program.

00:17:54.307 --> 00:17:58.545
So all the dogs in that program either went to law enforcement or they went to their handler.

00:17:58.545 --> 00:18:01.071
Since I was the first handler, I got a choice to adopt her.

00:18:01.071 --> 00:18:02.413
Since I was a first handler, I got a choice to adopt her.

00:18:02.413 --> 00:18:03.823
So I adopted her in July of 2014.

00:18:03.823 --> 00:18:05.348
And then she just old age.

00:18:05.348 --> 00:18:08.931
She was 13 and a half.

00:18:08.931 --> 00:18:10.306
She did 4 combat deployments.

00:18:10.306 --> 00:18:13.170
I had her for 7 years.

00:18:13.170 --> 00:18:14.680
She was almost 14 years old.

00:18:14.680 --> 00:18:18.366
She's 6 months, 5 months shy of 14 years old.

00:18:18.366 --> 00:18:20.609
She lived a long life.

00:18:20.609 --> 00:18:22.006
She had a hard life growing up.

00:18:22.463 --> 00:18:24.864
4 deployments Four deployments yeah, four deployments.

00:18:26.683 --> 00:18:29.948
She had bread for that purpose and was in Afghanistan.

00:18:29.948 --> 00:18:32.487
She was whelped in 2008.

00:18:32.487 --> 00:18:41.751
Just over three years later, her and I were training together in Mahajan, viper, and then we went to Afghanistan Wow.

00:18:42.960 --> 00:18:43.303
That's cool, though.

00:18:43.303 --> 00:18:44.317
And then you ultimately to afghanistan wow, that's cool, though.

00:18:44.317 --> 00:18:45.412
And then you ultimately got her back then.

00:18:45.412 --> 00:18:46.795
What a cool story.

00:18:46.795 --> 00:18:47.537
At least that that's.

00:18:47.537 --> 00:18:51.146
That's pretty sweet, yeah, mary switzer helped with all that.

00:18:51.227 --> 00:18:57.585
Like here in oklahoma, coach switzer's a big icon with sports and football and uh, but he.

00:18:57.585 --> 00:18:58.366
That's how we.

00:18:58.366 --> 00:19:00.873
I got involved with coach switzer and he helped.

00:19:00.873 --> 00:19:02.924
He helped get alley back in 2014.

00:19:04.269 --> 00:19:04.810
Yeah, that's cool.

00:19:04.810 --> 00:19:13.799
Well, huge thanks to him, because that's a super cool opportunity that I'm sure is pretty uncommon, well.

00:19:13.799 --> 00:19:30.983
So, okay, let me ask you this, because I know at least, anthony, you're a little tight on time here, but with the let's call it assumption that Allie was part of your healing process, or getting Allie back was part of your healing process, what would you have done if you didn't?

00:19:30.983 --> 00:19:33.713
How would you have processed differently if you didn't get Allie?

00:19:33.733 --> 00:19:34.636
back, yeah, or was she the primary cause?

00:19:34.636 --> 00:19:42.965
When I first got out of Marine Corps in March of 2012, I came home in April, the next month, and I worked for the family business for 10 years.

00:19:42.965 --> 00:19:46.845
But so that April 2012, I adopted a Doberman cause.

00:19:46.845 --> 00:19:48.409
I didn't think I'd ever see Allie again.

00:19:48.409 --> 00:19:58.804
So I just gotten back from combat, you know, six months prior, and I had this dog that was with me through some traumatic instances in my life.

00:19:58.804 --> 00:20:00.507
So I was like I need another dog.

00:20:00.867 --> 00:20:08.367
I adopted, uh, a doberman roxy, uh the local rescue here in tulsa, and then, and then two years later, I adopted ally.

00:20:08.367 --> 00:20:09.089
So I had them both.

00:20:09.089 --> 00:20:14.830
I had to put roxy down in 2018 and and then I had ally and I had to put her down in 2021.

00:20:14.830 --> 00:20:17.337
Um, so she was a big part.

00:20:17.337 --> 00:20:22.786
Like I said, she was through a lot of things in my life through that deployment, and then I never thought I'd see her again.

00:20:22.786 --> 00:20:28.494
And then, when I did get her back, I knew the next time I lost her she would pass away.

00:20:28.494 --> 00:20:35.333
So I knew it was a good feeling and good to get her back, but I knew there was going to be a time that it would.

00:20:35.333 --> 00:20:42.013
Losing her was going to be like losing a relative, you know you know, she was she was a marine.

00:20:42.034 --> 00:20:49.422
She, it's a lot and I and a lot of people who watch the movie there, they always talk about the dog scene and it's like because they can relate, everybody has a pet.

00:20:49.422 --> 00:20:53.386
You know, um, but uh, but she was more than just a pet to me.

00:20:53.386 --> 00:20:56.067
But what life would have been like without her?

00:20:56.067 --> 00:21:00.103
I, um, I can't really guess what it would be like.

00:21:00.103 --> 00:21:06.470
I'm fortunate enough that I didn't have to figure out a different way of coping because I have her.

00:21:07.151 --> 00:21:20.761
Well, let me ask you these last two questions, anthony, and then Manny, I've got a couple for you as well, yeah, so then let's take the same sort of point and just flip it a little bit.

00:21:20.761 --> 00:21:22.144
You can't actively talk to Allie and expect responses.

00:21:22.144 --> 00:21:22.664
You know what I mean.

00:21:22.664 --> 00:21:24.106
You can't actively talk to Allie and expect responses.

00:21:24.106 --> 00:21:24.768
You know what I mean.

00:21:24.768 --> 00:21:43.512
You can't have a conversation to process and obviously, like in my case, hosting a podcast or you guys, you've got each other, but communicating all of the trauma or guilt, or just to help your brain process, makes a difference.

00:21:43.512 --> 00:21:47.644
So having a dog like Allie, or even Roxy, I'm sure, helps a lot, or any pet for that matter.

00:21:47.644 --> 00:21:52.232
But who'd you talk to, who'd you reach out to?

00:21:52.232 --> 00:21:57.145
How do you, you know, reconcile these things to reintegrate?

00:21:58.008 --> 00:22:05.049
um, so to go back to your question of like, when you talk to a dog, like like they don't respond.

00:22:05.049 --> 00:22:06.443
They won't answer but they listen.

00:22:06.443 --> 00:22:13.108
And I think that's the good thing, because a lot of times when we talk to somebody they don't know what to say, like just a friend.

00:22:13.108 --> 00:22:20.301
And they don't have to know what to say because a lot of times there's not, there's not a right answer to say there's not a right response.

00:22:20.301 --> 00:22:27.440
If somebody is having an issue, they might not have the resolution, the answer that resolves that problem, but they can sit there and listen.

00:22:27.440 --> 00:22:40.348
And the good thing with Allie is she could sit there and listen and she didn't judge, she didn't care, she just was support, without even realizing Dogs are that way to us, they're just support.

00:22:40.348 --> 00:22:46.843
Dogs are more than pets to people way to us, they're just support.

00:22:46.843 --> 00:22:47.665
Dogs are more than pets to to people.

00:22:47.705 --> 00:22:51.539
So, um, in ways, just having her to talk to her and because that was something too is her and I went through these things together.

00:22:51.539 --> 00:22:54.305
She experienced it with me.

00:22:54.305 --> 00:23:13.791
She didn't understand them, she didn't, you know, she can't comprehend or realize that, but just being able to talk to her and have her was, uh, it was a blessing and a help to me just because she was part of my life during that time.

00:23:13.791 --> 00:23:23.243
But then, outside of that, if I needed to talk somebody else, uh, I would just talk to people that I trusted, people that I uh were in the military.

00:23:23.243 --> 00:23:24.295
People that were in that my uh were in the military.

00:23:24.295 --> 00:23:31.461
People that were in that my same unit, maybe even in the same platoon that there's there's a handful of dudes that I would reach out to and talk to.

00:23:32.364 --> 00:23:59.401
I'm going to take a leap here, based on some firsthand experience that going through those kinds of coping mechanisms talking to people hanging out with your dogs, making this documentary, helping these families like you know, finding processes and roles for yourself to cope at times takes a toll on your self-worth, who you are, what role you fill in society, all of those kinds of things.

00:23:59.401 --> 00:24:16.192
So let me ask you this, I guess as a final question then, before you got to step out, anthony, that what, what types of, let's say, values did you find worked for you to stand on and rely on and sort of re-instigate your own sense of self and self-worth?

00:24:18.060 --> 00:24:35.048
So I grew up, you know, catholic we're catholic, uh, religious christians and then just the values, I think the values of being a marine, the values of being a man and the way that our parents raised us, uh helped me on on a straight and narrow.

00:24:35.048 --> 00:24:37.573
I guess I had my problems, like when I first got a marine.

00:24:37.573 --> 00:25:01.624
I had my issues, but I'm I'm fortunate I never got hooked on like substances, like drugs, uh, you know, like a lot of dudes do and come out and you know I've had my my issues, but I'm I'm fortunate I never got hooked on like substances, like drugs, uh, you know, like a lot of dudes do and come out, and you know I've had my bad thoughts myself and uh, um, but the values I just I don't know, I just always I think the Marine Corps instilled a set of values in me that I just continued with, even even to today.

00:25:01.624 --> 00:25:04.627
I mean the military made me in me that I just continued with, even to today.

00:25:04.627 --> 00:25:05.949
I mean the military made me.

00:25:05.949 --> 00:25:07.830
I think the Marine Corps made me who I am.

00:25:07.932 --> 00:25:12.115
And even people nowadays still ask that question, which you probably get what do you do it again?

00:25:12.115 --> 00:25:18.834
You know, I was like a year or so ago I was talking to a guy and he's like trying to get the question out.

00:25:18.834 --> 00:25:20.339
He was kind of beating around the bush.

00:25:20.339 --> 00:25:29.228
He was trying to ask the question without actually saying it and I just said, said yeah, I'd do it again because I mean that's just the best way.

00:25:29.228 --> 00:25:30.875
I know how to answer that question, just being the person I am.

00:25:30.875 --> 00:25:33.825
Um, I think everybody, you know everybody has free will to make their own choices.

00:25:33.825 --> 00:25:36.270
You got to figure out what values are best for you.

00:25:36.270 --> 00:25:42.650
But the marine corps helping still some good values in me and my parents and my family, our family, some good values in me and my parents and my family.

00:25:42.750 --> 00:25:45.193
Yeah, I definitely agree with that point specifically.

00:25:47.559 --> 00:25:47.721
I don't.

00:25:47.721 --> 00:25:49.625
I might look like a convict, but I'm not.

00:25:49.625 --> 00:25:50.326
Yeah.

00:25:53.182 --> 00:25:56.586
I don't particularly want to relive every moment, but I wouldn't trade any of it.

00:25:57.009 --> 00:25:57.170
Yeah.

00:25:57.541 --> 00:25:59.880
And it is an interesting sort of point.

00:25:59.880 --> 00:26:05.386
I think the Marine Corps does nurture quite a bit and shape quite a bit, but there's something to be said for what's natural too.

00:26:05.386 --> 00:26:13.429
So, since I know you've got to step out, I just wanted to say again, real quick, before you leave, thanks for putting this on the table.

00:26:13.429 --> 00:26:41.813
I don't mean the documentary, I mean your experience, I mean your perspective and, you know, to your, to your parents, for helping get you into a position, mentally and spiritually, where you could volunteer, not initially, um, you know, in 2008, 2009, but in 2012, in 2016, in 2021, to make this documentary, to help gold, gold star families, and just it helps.

00:26:41.813 --> 00:26:44.599
It keeps the legacy alive, but it also helps out of the memory.

00:26:44.599 --> 00:26:50.529
It also helps bring together a community, even just a subculture, that needs it.

00:26:51.550 --> 00:27:07.173
So thanks well, I appreciate it and I've said it before, but I think all the things that I've done out of the military is just because has come from a desire to continuing, continually wanting to serve in some aspect.

00:27:07.173 --> 00:27:14.931
So I'm not active duty, I'm not, I don't wear the uniform anymore, but it doesn't mean I can't do something in some way that to give back.

00:27:14.931 --> 00:27:17.526
So that's what I found was the carvings.

00:27:17.526 --> 00:27:34.310
What I found was trying to make the, you know, making the film, trying to get the stories out, so that's that's kind of uh, you mean, you don't have to wear a uniform, you don't have to be like in formation or in standing in a uniform to do some type of service.

00:27:34.310 --> 00:27:37.326
So yeah, but I appreciate you having me on, I got to get to this VA appointment.

00:27:39.661 --> 00:27:42.088
Alrighty folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

00:27:42.088 --> 00:27:54.731
Alrighty folks, if you're looking for more perspective and more podcast, you can check out Transacting Value on Weeds Across America Radio, listen in on iHeartRadio Odyssey and TuneIn.

00:27:54.731 --> 00:28:39.181
Okay so, manny, I've got a couple questions about the production of this documentary and your ability to tell a story from, I guess you could say, a secondhand perspective that still is so impactful battlefield combat, casualty care, kinetic environments which you weren't physically in, and then the last, basically, decade of healing and processing, and I mean literally working through your family to help anthony get situated, communicate and convey these things for for his healing.

00:28:39.181 --> 00:28:43.392
So my first question, I guess what kind of a toll does that take on you?

00:28:44.680 --> 00:28:44.921
You know.

00:28:44.921 --> 00:28:56.548
So the thing is the work I do as a documentarian and I don't mean to be over the top or sensational, but it does take an emotional toll on me.

00:28:56.548 --> 00:29:01.026
My wife often jokes that I'm the woman in the relationship because I'm the emotional one.

00:29:01.026 --> 00:29:26.826
But as a documentarian I do take in a lot of emotion and feeling and kind of wear that on my sleeve a little bit and try to, you know, take on the emotion of the people my brother suffer when he was at some of the harder points in his life drinking too much, maybe suicidal he talks about in the movie.

00:29:26.826 --> 00:29:28.884
It was hard.

00:29:28.884 --> 00:29:30.042
I was at 3 am call.

00:29:30.042 --> 00:29:32.203
I was one of those people, one of the non-Marines he would call.

00:29:32.203 --> 00:29:34.403
You know, hey, man, I feel messed up right now.

00:29:34.403 --> 00:29:37.267
I feel like I just want to kill myself.

00:29:37.267 --> 00:29:39.582
I feel like you know, I'm at the bottom of a bottle whatever.

00:29:39.582 --> 00:29:42.124
And I feel like you know I'm at the bottom of a bottle whatever and I was one of those 3 am calls for him.

00:29:42.124 --> 00:29:45.647
That I think that's why we became so close after his time in the.

00:29:45.647 --> 00:29:59.240
I mean, we were brothers but became close as adults, as men, and he trusted me with his experience as his brother and it helped.

00:29:59.240 --> 00:30:01.810
By the time we started, you know, hey, I'm going to adopt Allie, let's make a short film.

00:30:01.810 --> 00:30:03.436
Hey, I'm going to do these carvings, let's make a short film.

00:30:03.436 --> 00:30:10.689
We kind of developed, you know, and so I started to understand how he was using these projects as new missions to help himself heal.

00:30:10.689 --> 00:30:20.826
And when the film became a thing that we started talking about, I knew that that would be the ultimate way to help him heal, like I tell I always.

00:30:20.826 --> 00:30:26.542
He knew that that would be the ultimate way to help him heal, like I tell I always.

00:30:26.542 --> 00:30:26.924
He didn't even want to be in the movie.

00:30:26.924 --> 00:30:28.653
He's like I want to go and I want to focus on these 17 families and I want them to tell the story of their son.

00:30:28.653 --> 00:30:30.459
And I said, yeah, anthony, but it's like Indiana Jones and the temple of doom.

00:30:30.459 --> 00:30:34.682
Nobody cares about the temple of doom until Indiana Jones tries to get into it, like you know.

00:30:34.682 --> 00:30:44.276
And so, like you have to be the person that connects these 17 families, because you're Anthony and you're the guy that cares and this is your story as much as it is theirs.

00:30:44.276 --> 00:30:49.833
And so I was able to bring that to him and he relented.

00:30:49.833 --> 00:30:57.210
I call him the reluctant hero, because it's like as a storytelling, it's like I don't want to do that but I'll do it because that's the best way to tell the story.

00:30:57.210 --> 00:30:59.624
But when we would go, you know?

00:30:59.624 --> 00:31:00.948
So my brother trusted me.

00:31:00.948 --> 00:31:14.711
It took years and years, almost 10 years trusted me with his emotion and feeling and healing, and then he trusted me to go into the homes of these people with him and and it was never sensational, it was never.

00:31:14.893 --> 00:31:18.146
Tell me about how your son died, tell me about when you, you know it was.

00:31:18.146 --> 00:31:20.752
Tell me about Jared, you know.

00:31:20.752 --> 00:31:21.846
Tell me about Joe, tell me about John, you know.

00:31:21.846 --> 00:31:22.451
And then that's, that's it was.

00:31:22.451 --> 00:31:23.034
Tell me about Jared, you know.

00:31:23.034 --> 00:31:25.987
Tell me about Joe, tell me about John, you know, and then that's, that's how it was.

00:31:25.987 --> 00:31:36.462
Like I have interest as a filmmaker and as a human being and as the brother of a Marine that served with your son, to know who your son was, who was he to you?

00:31:36.462 --> 00:31:39.329
And then it just opened conversations.

00:31:39.329 --> 00:31:41.323
And they were just open conversations.

00:31:41.323 --> 00:31:43.067
They weren't, they weren't, they weren't.

00:31:43.067 --> 00:31:47.085
There was no pressing, there was no gotcha journalism, it was conversations.

00:31:47.085 --> 00:31:48.088
You, know.

00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.361
Well, you guys went all over the place, right Like.

00:31:50.361 --> 00:31:57.451
I don't remember the exact order off the top of my head, but 34 states, 12,000 miles, 40 days on the road.

00:31:57.519 --> 00:31:57.902
Yeah, it was.

00:31:57.902 --> 00:31:59.007
It was amazing.

00:31:59.259 --> 00:32:01.407
Wait a minute, you did all that only in 40 days.

00:32:02.299 --> 00:32:02.807
Yeah, I mean the on the road.

00:32:02.807 --> 00:32:02.951
Yeah, it was.

00:32:02.951 --> 00:32:03.970
It was amazing, wait a minute, you did all that only in 40 days.

00:32:03.970 --> 00:32:05.548
Yeah, I mean, the majority of the movie was in 40 days.

00:32:05.548 --> 00:32:17.115
There were some scenes, like, you know, pendleton came five months later and there was one family that couldn't meet us because the dad was a covid um, nurse or something, and the covid was raging it like, so we had to go back.

00:32:17.115 --> 00:32:20.002
But 90 percent of the movie was shot in the 40 days on the road.

00:32:20.002 --> 00:32:20.984
Yeah, yeah, and that was a.

00:32:21.526 --> 00:32:23.390
That was a device I had kind of come up with.

00:32:23.390 --> 00:32:30.132
You know, it was like as a filmmaker, you're always kind of looking for a device like how can I package this?

00:32:30.132 --> 00:32:33.357
Oh, let's get two brothers in an RV and go on the road.

00:32:33.357 --> 00:32:37.145
Okay, you know, we could have gotten to a minivan, it would be a little less romantic.

00:32:37.145 --> 00:32:45.468
Um, you know, we could have gone to a geo metro, but it's like let's get into an rv and we.

00:32:45.468 --> 00:33:04.307
And it turned out to be like the right move for us as a film production, because we were a film production too and we had a table in there and we had computers set up and download stations and battery charging stations and you know lighting, lighting compartments underneath the rv where we had certain state like it became a practical device as much as it did a vehicle to travel.

00:33:05.941 --> 00:33:07.500
That's a cool idea too, yeah.

00:33:07.500 --> 00:33:08.345
So what did that do?

00:33:08.345 --> 00:33:15.347
Because a lot of people families specifically start to build some kind of relationship or underpinning for a relationship.

00:33:15.347 --> 00:33:24.609
It's in small doses 40 days between the two of you, within 10 feet of each other all the time.

00:33:24.609 --> 00:33:26.623
Did that cause some state?

00:33:27.345 --> 00:33:28.468
We didn't argue much, I mean.

00:33:28.468 --> 00:33:32.728
I mean I'll be honest and it's the elephant in the room and we do address it slightly in the movie.

00:33:32.728 --> 00:33:35.825
But I'll say, like you know, there's other movies that address this.

00:33:35.825 --> 00:33:36.066
There's.

00:33:36.066 --> 00:33:37.810
This was not a movie about the withdrawal.

00:33:37.810 --> 00:33:44.634
This was a movie about the withdrawal had just happened when we went on the road in 21, the withdrawal from Kabul.

00:33:45.315 --> 00:33:52.019
We had decided from the outset this is not a political film, it's not a pro-war movie, it's not an anti-war movie, it's a pro-empathy and pro-healing movie.

00:33:52.019 --> 00:34:03.933
And so you know, when we went on the road, some of my more liberal left friends would say you really got to press them on what they think about you know, Obama or Biden or Bush or this and this, like we're not doing that.

00:34:03.933 --> 00:34:12.208
And some of my more conservative friends are like you got to blame Joe Biden and you got to say we're not doing that, we're going to tell the story about their son and that's that's the story we're going to tell.

00:34:12.208 --> 00:34:15.282
It's not a political movie, but we do address.

00:34:15.282 --> 00:34:19.168
We do address the withdrawal in the movie.

00:34:19.168 --> 00:34:22.215
You hear Anthony listening to a podcast about it and we do.

00:34:22.215 --> 00:34:25.369
And we do ask a few families and, um, we have to.

00:34:25.389 --> 00:34:26.331
It was the elephant in the room.

00:34:26.331 --> 00:34:30.856
But the only time we only ever argued was one time about the withdrawal.

00:34:30.856 --> 00:34:36.460
But we were just talking about the withdrawal and we, we just went back and forth and argued with each other and then we were over it, I mean.

00:34:36.460 --> 00:34:38.565
But we were 40 days on the road.

00:34:38.565 --> 00:34:40.407
We didn't argue about the way to make the movie.

00:34:40.407 --> 00:34:42.572
We didn't argue about what we were going to put in the movie.

00:34:42.572 --> 00:34:43.012
We didn't.

00:34:43.012 --> 00:34:49.090
Anthony trusted me and it's always flattered me, humbly flattered me that he's told people I've heard him tell.

00:34:49.090 --> 00:34:50.733
He doesn't tell me this, he's told other people.

00:34:50.733 --> 00:34:53.128
I like the way my brother tells stories.

00:34:53.128 --> 00:35:07.003
That's why I wanted to make the movie with him and feel honored that he trusted me with that.

00:35:07.023 --> 00:35:07.603
You know what I mean.

00:35:07.603 --> 00:35:09.126
So it's like we didn't really argue at all.

00:35:09.126 --> 00:35:12.532
We just argued that one time about one fine point, about the withdrawal, but what the hell do, I know well, so, uh, apparently quite a bit.

00:35:12.532 --> 00:35:26.746
Now you've made, uh, some inroads throughout this documentary to illustrate, you know, with stock footage or b-roll or first-hand accounts and actual video document, uh documented from deployments, well, actually from that deployment.

00:35:27.260 --> 00:35:29.065
Yeah, that footage is from Nate McCord.

00:35:29.065 --> 00:35:34.284
He was combat photographer for 1-5 at that time, so that footage is from that deployment.

00:35:34.284 --> 00:35:41.315
That's not stock, that's not, you know, just random Afghanistan footage footage.

00:35:41.315 --> 00:35:42.398
That is the deployment.

00:35:42.878 --> 00:35:46.668
I mean, they're literally in trenches getting rained on by rocks during mortar fire.

00:35:46.668 --> 00:36:00.789
Yep, how did you come to the idea that you wanted firsthand footage, give or take, seven or eight years after the fact, ten years after the fact, and then actually track this guy down to get it?

00:36:01.512 --> 00:36:04.806
so there were two things we said we didn't want to make because we felt like they've already existed.

00:36:04.806 --> 00:36:10.568
We didn't want to make a combat movie because you have movies like, um, what's the restrepo?

00:36:10.568 --> 00:36:18.375
Oh yeah, great movies, great movies, but they're super combat footage, heavy, obviously, um.

00:36:18.375 --> 00:36:22.168
And we didn't want to make a cemetery movie where it's just 17 cemeteries.

00:36:22.168 --> 00:36:25.126
You know there are cemeteries in the movie and it's appropriate.

00:36:25.126 --> 00:36:33.121
But we wanted to make a movie that goes beyond just the battlefield and the cemetery, because so many movies fall into that kind of kind of pattern.

00:36:33.121 --> 00:36:37.210
I think, um, we have both of those things, but we're we're sparing with them.

00:36:37.210 --> 00:36:38.012
Um.

00:36:38.012 --> 00:36:42.090
But the thing we did too was we never wanted the combat footage to be sensational.

00:36:42.090 --> 00:36:47.384
We never wanted to see someone getting blown up.

00:36:47.384 --> 00:36:48.467