I mean anything that we create into a product as humans, it's not going to be a hundred percent really real.

Even if the news is completely unbiased, right? They're picking what stories to tell they're picking how to tell them, so it's not just a mirror of reality, right? Like it's still shaped by humans?

So anything that we put out into the world is nothing is gonna be a hundred percent real. Alrighty, folks. Welcome back to Transacting Value, where we're encouraging dialogue from different perspectives to unite over shared values.

Our theme for season 4 is intrinsic values. What your character is doing when you look yourself in the mirror? If you're new to the podcast, welcome.

If you're a continuing listener, welcome back. Today, we're talking our May core values of unity, honor, and mental toughness, and for our second mini series of this season, It's called socializing value.

So what we're showcasing, who we're showcasing, is people that find ways to put value or their values out into society and how they socialize those things and how they talk about them in different formats and different mediums.

Now today, got a sociology professor and author of True Story, what reality TV says about us to showcase exactly that. So folks without further ado, I'm Porter. I'm your host, and this is transacting value. Alright, Danielle.

How's life? How are you? I'm doing great. How are you? Great. Great. So folks for everybody listening, like I said, Danielle Lindeman is not only a sociology professor, She also writes about it, and you've got now I think 3 books.

Right? 3 now. Yes. Yeah. Well, congratulations. That's quite a feat from what I understand.

Thank you. Yeah. Now this most recent 1 is your book about reality TV. Correct? Correct. Yeah. So what are the other 2 about? So, the first book is about women who work as professional Dominatrixes.

Nice. I interviewed them for the book. And then the second book is about commuter spouses, so couples who live apart, or married couples, I should say, who live apart because of their jobs.

Because their jobs are geographically incompatible, and then the last book is about reality TV.

And I know those things don't sound like they have anything to do with each other, right? It's like 1 of those Sesame's big 1 of these things is not like the other.

None of them seem like the others but yeah so I'm generally I'm a sociologist who studies what we call deviance, which I know is like a really loaded term, but it just means behavior that strays from a norm.

So I look at how people who engage in deviant behavior, so called deviant behavior, can teach us about kind of our everyday norms and commonplace practices.

Okay. Okay. Cool. Cool. Cool. So this is like looking at the negative space to see what's there based on how it's impacting things around it. Yeah. That's yeah. Almost exactly. It's what we call the centrality of marginality.

So looking at people who are kind of marginalized or who engage in behaviors that others don't, and sort of by understanding that, we can understand kind of social life at its core more generally.

I see. Because then you would erase sad or inauthenticity or something like that? Well, also just the way they reacted too in society can kind of teach us about our core values, core values.

Right? Sure. It's like, why do we consider certain actions to be deviant? Why do we stigmatize certain behaviors, certain things?

Our reaction to people who engage in non normative behavior can kind of teach us about central facets of our own culture. That was that on a like a social or or societal level like different morals and things or individually?

I think it's both. I mean, you know, sociologists tend to look at like groups Right? So all of society is kind of the biggest group, I guess. So on a social level, but also we look at how individuals interact with society.

So how do we kind of internalize the values into which we've been socialized. Mhmm. So mostly in terms of groups, but we do look at the individual too at times. Alright.

Well, I'll follow your lead for a second then. Let's just start with this individual aspect. Matter of fact, since you're here, let's start with you. Alright? So for everybody listening, Danielle and I are talking on a video call.

Right? It makes I feel for a more natural conversation. It's easier to sort of relax and trust people and build rapport when you can see them. And I fully believe that.

But I'm also fully aware that none of you can see her. And so for Danielle, everybody that If he doesn't even know who you are or isn't familiar with what any of these themes actually mean and how they apply to themselves.

I'd like to distill it down to you first if we could sort of a short snippet you've already addressed, but what sorts of other things have helped shape your perspective?

Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, you know, we're socialized from day 1 of life. Right? And so every day we have social forces that are shaping our perspectives and making us who we are.

It's impossible to think about kind of a self that isn't at all shaped by society or like who our true self would be, right? Because every day we're being shaped, and we don't even most of us don't even know the extent of it.

So I think, you know, what has shaped me? I mean, I think my family life has shaped me, I think, growing up, for instance, you know, with a mother who really valued education. Low and behold, I became a professor shockingly.

You know, in becoming, you know, getting married, becoming a mother, you know, like the corniest thing in the world, but having kids has absolutely shaped my perceptions on life for 1 thing I've become a lot less judgmental of other parents.

And so, I mean, I think know, going back to the idea of core values. Right? I think it's interesting the other day when we talked about this call and you asked me like what my core values are.

Yeah. And I've never been asked that question before. I've never had to like sit down and account for my own core values. I can talk about, you know, other people's core values, how we're socialized.

From a sociological perspective but not my own, but I think, you know, for me it really distills to being non judgmental of others, pretty much allowing other people to do things even if it's not the way even it's not what you would do or the way that you would do as long as they're not hurting anybody else?

And I don't always succeeds, I think maybe inherently we're a little bit judgmental. But I would say that's certainly 1 of my core values is, and I think that's, you know, shaped by the life experiences that I've had.

Yeah. Well, I mean like you said, we may be unwitting to their influence, but you can't help but be influenced by your experiences. Right?

So Although, I think even someone like a sociologist who studies this and understands that I'm sure I can't even account for all the ways that maybe I would be different if I had been brought up in a different culture or with a different family, right, or different friends?

Yeah. Oh, I mean for sure. It's so difficult I think to try to even guess or or just speculate it. How any change or effect in your life could make you different now because you might even look the same.

You might even act the same. Right? But your interpretation of those things might be just a little bit different. You might not look the same, right? Because so much of how we look is based on, you know, how we're socialized.

Yeah, that's a great point. And I'm assuming you don't just mean like the physical scars as a result of stepping on the rake and knocking at a tooth or something.

I mean how like how much we weigh, our haircut, how we dress, Right? Yeah. What her skin looks like all of these things are, yeah, sure.

There's like a biological aspect, but there's also all these social forces that are shaping, you know, what we on our body and in our body and against our body. Already folks sit tight and we'll be right back on transacting value.

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What her skin looks like all of these things are, yeah, sure. There's like a biological aspect, but there's also all these social forces that are shaping, you know, what we put on our body and in our body and against our body.

Well, okay. So when you say social force, is this something we talked about the other day actually also? You brought up this I guess it's not a fixed phrase, but you brought up this phrase dominant American culture.

When you're taking sort of your sample group of Americans, or some of these models and studies, how do you qualify that? Because that's still a lot of variables to try to account for.

That's a really good question. I mean, I think dominant American culture in some ways is a misnomer, right, because there's there's so many different American cultures. Right? Exactly.

Yeah. But I think when I think about Dominic, I think about the people who are in power and various sort of cultural motifs or, like, things that they they use or they employ or they like often times to kind of help them stay in power.

Sure. So, when I think about I think about 2 or the dominant groups in American society, right? Who has the power?

Who has the say? And what are their values. And so in your view, I guess, or even in your experience, how do you see that approach, I guess, of whoever these groups are, the majorities or not, but the most influential, let's call it.

How do you see their actions and their representations of these values spreading or impacting smaller groups, minorities, the individuals, the smaller cities, or or whatever applies.

Right? That's a really good question. So, I mean I think, and this is something I talk about I'm teaching a class on social deviance right now.

It's going back to the core of my work which is deviance. I think You know, 1 of the things that groups in power can do is, you know, decide what's normal, right, and decide who's deviant, and decide how to punish the deviance.

And so called deviance, right? So I think absolutely the culture of the majority or not even the majority, right? The culture of the people in power, shape, life experiences of people in marginalized groups or other groups?

Well, okay, so let's let's just play the other I guess angle the other aspect here. What's or what are some benefits to this deviance, to this shift from the norm then.

Because obviously the norm, like you said, has an impact from whoever's in power and influence and whatever. So that's gonna be at least what's sort of temporarily legitimized for a group.

But what about the outcast? What's the benefit to going against the grain? Yeah, that's a great question. That's like a fundamental question in sociology. So right? Because as I tell my daughter, right?

It's easier just to behave. Right? Yeah. You know, you're not gonna get sanctioned. Right? If you behave. Exactly. So I think, you know, some of the things are, well, they're, like, people who are deviant just for their very existence.

Right? They're not, like, you could argue that if men are the people in power, then women are deviant, but like -- Okay. -- they just exist. Right? They're not doing anything. They're just existing.

So that's a 1 way. I mean, sometimes there can be like a subversive pleasure in being deviant, there can be a pleasure in kind of going against and, you know, feeling like you're a rebel and going against the norm.

Sure. Sure. I think also, and this goes to my book about reality TV.

Right? Sometimes people are are so normal that they become deviant. So, like, this is why we put a lot of reality stars into that kind of like classic example in sociology is like working hard is an American virtue, right?

Your spouse is supposed to work hard, but then if you become a workaholic, that's considered to be deviant. So it's like, you're conforming too much.

And I sort of make that argument about reality TV stars where they're really overblown They might seem like they have nothing to do with their own lives, they're just kind of wacky people in the fringes, but actually like, in some ways, they're taking our norms and our behaviors and just kind of dialing it up to 11, just really engaging in our norms in a really overblown way.

Do you think then that well, let's say reality TV. Right? Do you think that's what makes it so appealing? Because it's like reflecting what we're already doing or magnifying it maybe?

I think that's 1 of the things. I mean, there's so much reality TV and people tune in for so there's a lot of literature in why people watch reality TV and there's what a different reason than it depends on the show?

I think 1 of the things is that reality is kind of interesting because You might tend to think reality TVs like zany and weird, but I think it on 1 level, it's like paradoxical because it actually reaffirm some of our kind of basic kind of values as a society?

Maybe not ones that I personally would agree with or anyone would personally agree with. But kind of core values.

So I think that's 1 of the reasons but there are a lot it's really nuanced. There are a lot of reasons why people watch reality TV. Oh, okay. So let me ask you this then. How does reality TV help to reaffirm societal values?

So it stems from societal values and then helps to reaffirm them. So I I tend to think of it. It's interesting. Right? We talked about this the other day. Right? Like, I tend to think of it in terms of norms versus values.

Uh-huh. I would re regram the societal norms. I don't know, I think it also reaffirms societal values, so like you could argue that we're a materialistic society mean, there's a lot of evidence of that. Right? Sure.

And there's a lot of there's a lot of evidence of materialism on reality TV and then the circle goes around and you know there's evidence that people who tune in to shows like keeping up with the Kardashians tend to be more materialistic.

Now, correlation is not causation, so, you know, we don't know that the show making them more materialistic or is it just people who are more materialistic tend to tune into the Kardashians -- Sure. Sure. -- we don't know.

Right? But clearly there's an association there right between like the materialism on these shows and the materialism in kind of American life. Yeah. I mean, there's gotta be some sort of association or people wouldn't watch.

Right? Like, it's going to see I don't know, a comedian you think as a funny routine, you're not gonna get the jokes if you haven't some level of experience to, you know, whatever the punch line is or whatever the material's about.

So Exactly. And, you know, and shows like, you know, it shows like the bachelor. Right? You might say, well, that's totally removed from my own life.

I would never, like, compete against 17 other women for a guy I've met known for 3 weeks and get married at the end of it. But at the end of the day, a lot of these shows kind of play into kind of archetypes.

So usually there's a character you can sort of remind you of yourself in a way There's always like, the funny 1, and the smart 1, and the, you know, the cryer.

Right? And so, watching them be like, oh, the smart 1, it person sort of like me, even though they're not really like me because I wouldn't be on that show, but they're sort of like me.

So I can sort of like grab hold of that character and relate to their experience. And I think that's where reality TV does a lot, right?

It's the traffics and these really broad archetypes where it's like the comedian, right? Where you're going to see a comedian, you sort of relate to that resonates with you, you understand their experience and that's why it's funny.

Well, in this case, you know, even though these characters unreality shows may seem like kind of wacky and zany.

There's always some like sort of grain of something that you can hold on to and say, like, that person sort of like me a little bit. Already focused it tight and we'll be right back on transacting value.

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Well, in this case, you know, even though these characters on reality shows may seem like kinda wacky and zany, there's always some sort of grain of something that you can hold on to and say that person sort of like me a little bit.

Do you think it's personality that makes relatable like of these individuals on on say reality TV.

Do you think it's personality that makes it relatable or seeing the experiences happen that makes it more relatable? I guess both, and I think you know the editors too, right?

They rely on that, so they create these characters that we can sort of really I mean, there are some that like nobody can relate to because they're just so like out there, right?

But I think they're trying to create characters that we can sort of root for or root again are the ones that we love to hate.

So I think it's both what they're going through. Even if right so even if you've never, like, competed against 17 other women for, like, Beyonce.

Sure. You still, you know, maybe have dated, right? You've still been in relationships, so there's still like aspects of it that you might be able to hold on to and say like, oh, that sort of resonates with my experience.

Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Well, that's just the bachelor right.

And you had mentioned obviously commuter couples and and marriage and dating and these types of themes, but There's other types of reality TV shows that don't involve those things like, I don't know, the apprentice or survivor or something.

They're not really based on a romantic relationship does that still carry the same resonance then in your opinion?

I mean, I think I mean, the princess can teach us a lot about, you know, like the importance capitalism, and American society, how we interact with each other in small groups, power, power dynamics, And survivor also teaches us a lot about, you know, how we interact in small groups and even things like, you know, gender and race and sexuality and So, there's a there's a lot there even in shows that aren't about romantic relationships.

Okay. Well, take it in afraid. That's just 1 person. You're right. So now there's no relationships. It's 2 people. Nick headed afraid as 2 people. Yeah, now, but didn't it start out as just 1 person?

I think the first episode was 2 people, I think. Well, that's my foot my mouth. I don't know any reality shows. I read about that in the book. You're calling me out. I haven't read your book.

No, I wasn't suggesting you have to. I'm just saying, Nick Anna Freight is actually really interesting because like for a lot of different reasons, just because it's like is solely focused on what we call a Driad, a group of 2.

So it's it's really interesting for understanding like how a Driad works because they're literally like isolated, the whole show is just this dyad.

So naked and afraid is actually pretty fascinating. Well, isolated on camera, but there's still a camera crew. Right? Like, there's still a camera crew.

They're not interacting with them. Right? I don't know that. They could be on Unless, well, there's the 1 where he cut us like I mean, unless they're really like about to die, you know, then I guess the camera crew.

Saves sound but, you know, for the most part, right? Like, I don't know. They're like houses on fire and the camera crew are just sitting there. I don't know.

Well, sometimes, what did he say, some people just like to watch the world burn. Right? That's how it goes. But anyway, that was a horrible impression. But the point is, there's all sorts of different shows, like, especially now.

You can look at Netflix, what's the name of that show? The guy he's magic for humans. Have you seen it? That 1, I don't know. Okay. I don't even know if it'd be considered reality TV because it's sort of I think I can't prove this.

Everybody listening, I have 0 grounds to actually factually make this claim. But I'm pretty sure it's fake. Alright? So he's a magician, he's street performer essentially, and he does his magic tricks.

But the show gets edited. Clips shift like there's breaks in the scenes where anything could be set up in those breaks to make it seem like Oh, well, what was invisible is now visible and vice versa, for example. Right?

And I'm sure he's he's obviously got skills and capable of entertaining people to whatever degree, but I don't know if I would consider that reality TV even though it involves people on the street and, you know, you can relate with the shock and awe and the impressive nature of some of his tricks.

But I guess now, it's sort of a moot point if you haven't seen the show.

We can't really dive into that. That's okay. You know, I mean, although it's interesting. You bring up an interesting point about reality TV, which is this idea of authenticity.

Sure. Right? And this idea of is it real or then I mean, that's like the number 1 thing that people say to me when they know that I study reality TV is you know it's all fake.

Right? It's not real. People are very obsessed with whether reality TV is really real or not. But I think that's it's fascinating because I think it speaks to kind of a larger cultural obsession with authenticity.

Right? About, like, being your true self, being your authentic self, right, being real? And we sit on the shows too. Right? People are often called out for not being real or being there for the wrong reasons and not the right reasons.

And so, yeah, and it's interesting because it just translates also to even people who are watching the shows who are assessing how authentic they are or are not.

Yeah. Well, I mean you you sort of start to question I don't wanna go super metaphysical here, but you sort of start to question what is real then if that's really showcasing what things are like.

That's not what it's like in my town, or what I see on YouTube isn't how I view life. But it's happening on the street. Like, it must be a real thing somewhere.

You know, when you start to sort of you get the what was the the red stone and Avengers, the reality stone? You know, like things just start to warp and shift, and your perception almost has to sort of rise to meet it.

How do you weigh that out? You know, like the honor and integrity of the system here sort of starts to rock a little. Mean, it's not just reality TV.

Right? It's like as, you know, social media too. Right? Like, people posting pictures at their perfect dinners and their perfect children and they're perfect worlds. Right? Yeah. Which is that is that reality?

It's more of a philosophical question. That's not really a sociological question, right? But like, I mean anything that we create into a product as humans, it's not going to be a hundred percent really real.

Even if the news is completely unbiased, Right? They're picking what stories to tell they're picking how to tell them, so it's not just a mirror of reality, right? Like it's still shaped by humans?

Anything that we put out into the world is nothing is gonna be a hundred percent real. So reality TV isn't alone, it's not new in that respect. Oh, In reality TV is basically just the medium for people to be social.

They're just not communicating back. It's a 1 way social medium. So I mean but now you'll follow me on Instagram and also watch me on the apprentice or follow me on Twitter and also find me in this video game or on Twitch or whatever.

Right? So there's -- Yeah. -- there's these I guess you could call them 2 way relationships now with these arguably, I guess, reality stars.

So, does that change things? Yeah, it's really interesting. So like reality TV has always kind of worked on on multiple platforms at the same time.

Right? Like, so you're watching the show, but you can also buy the music that's being played on the show and that goes back to like the original real world.

Right? Yeah. But even now, right, you can watch the show, buy the music, buy the doll, buy the makeup, go on Instagram, and then tweet at kim kardash Right?

So there are all these like kind of multiple points of contact between yourself and the people on these shows, which is kind of interesting.

The other thing is, right? Like, we tend to form what are called parasocial relationships with people that we see like in TV shows or in movies, So like you might form a pair of social relationship with Jennifer Aniston on friends.

Right? But you're forming a relationship with Rachel. You're not forming a relationship with Jennifer Aniston.

The difference is with reality TV is arguably, the relationships are more intense because you're forming a relationship, a parasocial relationship, with someone who's ostensibly being themself. Right? Mhmm. Kim Kardashian.

You could argue that there's some amount of performance there. Right? Sure. But Kim Kardashian ostensibly as being Kim Kardashian assian on the show. So that relationship you're forming might be more intense because it's with her.

It's not with her playing a character. And then you can go to social media and there's an added layer where actually kind of interacting with her and seeing even more of her life.

So I wouldn't even say it's a 1 way relationship, with it with the people that we see in the reality shows. Already folks stay tight and we'll be right back on transacting value.

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And helps support our show. You want more value for your values. Busprout can do that too. So, yeah, I wouldn't even say it's a 1 way relationship. With it with the people that we see in the reality shows.

Okay. Well, I think reality TV sort of as we understand it and know it now. Maybe started with MTV or VH1 perhaps. I don't remember exactly. It was in the nineties, I I think though.

Yeah. There was the people say that the real world was the first reality show. That was in the early nineties on MTV. I mean, it did showcase the real world, so it's tough to debate that point, I think.

But Before that, I guess the sitcom era that started there, you know, family matters, and fresh principal air, and full house, and I mean, that showcased how society sort of viewed at a sort of nucleus, I think, what reality was or could have been or should have been.

You consider that reality TV 2? No, I mean, not the definition of reality TV that I'm using, so in the book reality TV, I define it as kind of any TV that It's first meant to entertain rather than inform.

So, like, newscast I wouldn't consider to be reality TV. Although there's a lot of slippage there.

Right? Because news, again, as I said, it's like put together in a certain way to entertain. But -- Yeah. -- it's for, like, court TV. I wouldn't really say that it's reality. Other it kind of is also, but it's -- That's tough.

-- the most informed. Yeah. Mean, these are social categories. So there's like a lot they're very slippery and very fuzzy and -- Yeah. -- these are all social categories. WWE isn't necessarily reality TV, but it's Yeah.

So we thing though is that it has sort of the conventions of reality TV, so the sort of talking ahead, where they're interviewing a person about the action that's happening on the screen made that we see now even in scripted shows like the office.

Right? And also kind of like often they have a kind of a serial structure where a narrative unfolds.

But really, I'm looking at shows that our intended to entertain and also that feature people being ostensibly whether or not there's really scripting that are being ostensibly themselves and not playing characters.

So yeah, there are a lot of shows that I kind of are borderline. Right? Yeah. And that's fair. Right?

I'm just sort of poke and prod and probing here, but If all of those things let's just say for the sake of a baseline argument here, if all of those things are true and they've been proven to be true, then the position here is that they should also be showcasing whatever the sort of unified prevailing oral fiber or whatever, metric is for that society.

Right? That's the logic anyways? Yeah. I mean, I think so. But I think people don't wanna think that right because they don't want to see reality TV as reflecting anything about our moral our moral fabric.

Probably not. But what what does that indicate? Even if And in my opinion, this is all hypothetical, but what does that indicate?

If that's true, do we just have that image and take it at face value and go about our lives like, yeah. Well, that's what the middle class is doing. That's how the 20 year olds are behaving.

That's a new generation and throw our hands up and go back to work? No. I think so. What can we do with it? Well, okay, so I mean it teaches us about ourselves. Right? So I think there's always value in that.

But I think also if you look at reality TV and you see things that you think are ugly and that you might need to want to change, I think that's valuable to understand that, like, if you see like racism on reality TV, right?

Like, racism isn't just confined to reality TV, It might be kind of there in a gargantuan way in some of these shows but it exists in everyday life as well, so I think In that sense, reality TV has value in terms of teaching us about ourselves, in terms of teaching us about, maybe the things we might want to change?

I think also reality TV, in some ways, teaches us about really like a diversity of elements of American life. Right?

Like, From doomsday preppers to like 3 year old like beauty pageant contestants like it really takes a tour of the social landscape in a way that scripted TV doesn't always, and so I think reality TV has the power to teach us not only, you know, about ourselves and our own lives, which again I think is valuable but also about the real diversity of people that exists that are out there in American life.

Like that. I never actually thought about it quite so academic, but that is a very good point.

Also, I never considered aspects of, I'll call it, pseudo reality TV to be like, shows on discovery channel or going through the the serengeti with Morgan Freeman or whatever those shows happen to be.

Right? Like, I guess technically speaking, that would all sort of fit the fringes of this qualified definition.

But I'm curious about something. You said 1 of the biggest things reality TV can accomplish not in any particular order compared to anything else, but is that it helps to teach us about ourselves.

Things resonate with you and you see these things impacting. You've been studying this for a while. I mean, wittingly at the very least, the last few years, you've written books since I think 20 12 now.

So there's gotta be some sort of development on your part. Right? So I wanna I wanna move us real quick into a segment of the show called developing character.

Developing character. Here's how it plays out. It's 2 questions, and essentially it compares you now to you in the past, but based on your value systems.

So this first question, what were some of your values growing up? I mean, as I mentioned, I think, you know, education was really valued -- Uh-huh. -- in my home, you know.

Getting good grades, getting into a good college, right, looking at a job, right, in the future, and so I grew up really valuing education, I think some of the values that I have now are not the values that I necessarily had growing up.

Okay. Or is that your second question? Well, it is but feel free to drive, that's fine. Are some of your values now then?

I mean, I think just the importance of treating everyone with respect no matter how old they are, no matter, you know, whatever their relationship is to you or to me, I think that's really important, not that, you know, not that I wasn't raised to do that, not that my family treated people disrespectfully.

Right?

But I think, you know, there was definitely like a hierarchy like you treated older people with respect, but I think It's important to introduce everyone with respect even if they're different from you, and so that's certainly a value that I also have to pass on to my kids, but I think going back to what I said earlier, just the idea of really striving to be but sometimes failing but striving to be non judgmental and to really say why am I judging with this person is doing.

As long as they're not hurting anybody else, why does it matter that they're doing something that I wouldn't do or that I would do in a different way, ready that they're you know, raising their kids in a different way or like doing something else that I wouldn't necessarily do.

As long as it doesn't hurt anybody else, what does it matter to me at the end of the day?

And so that's really something that I really strive to pass on to my kids as well, but I think especially, you know, I just think becoming a parent has really altered my value system, just in the sense of, you know, really humbles a person, right, because it's really hard.

It's really hard to do that. Yeah. So I mean I think, you know, it really humbles you and you realize like you really shouldn't be out there judging because a lot of people have I'm pretty privileged and it's still really hard for me.

So Yeah. And so that's sort of the evolution of that aspect in my value system.

Alrighty, folks. Stay tight and we'll be right back on transacting value. Alright. Will mccullum holds the Scott Scott stories on TikTok. An occasional co host of transacting value to podcast through survival at y t.

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You really shouldn't be out there judging because a lot of people have I'm pretty privileged and it's still really hard for me. So Yeah. I It's less of the evolution of that aspect of my value system. I think it says quite a lot.

I mean, you've, at least to a certain degree, voluntarily put yourself in the path of all of the everything, right, from the the dregs of TV and social media to the sort of upper class lessons of academia that come with sociology and teaching, and then found a way to interpret all of it in a way that's productive and beneficial and mutually respectful and The journey you must have gone on over the past 10:12 somewhat if not more years to process all of that and then write it with clarity and make it entertaining and make it useful.

It must have been such a cool process for you, just to learn all this stuff and move through it.

I mean, I think it's cool. Yeah. But you made a career out of it. Yeah. I love my job. I can't think of anything else I'd rather do. So I mean, especially, you know, balancing the teaching and the writing.

It's so it's just amazing to work with young people and even though I'm totally have started seeing me as old and I don't understand their cultural references anymore.

But at least they can, you know, keep me up to date on what the coolest reality shows are that people are watching.

You know, there's a guy. I I don't remember his name because it was 1 of those clips on I think it was like an Instagram reel or something.

I didn't actually pay attention to reading what was in the bottom because What was in the video clip was I thought really, really entertaining.

This guy had taken friend like me from Aladdin Disney movie when Jeanie's dancing around and doing -- Yeah.

-- he took friend like me and parodied it and called it Jen like z. And so we've never had a gen like z. It was essentially the chorus line. And all the things that he described, on 1 hand, was I mean that's true.

There's all sorts of catchphrases now and talking through pictures and hieroglyphics. He called them emojis compared to words or emails or texts you know, from even a decade ago.

But then as he goes through the song and he sings, I don't know how many verses a couple. How many similarities there really still are, and really we haven't moved the bar that far. It's just morphed into a different looking bar.

Have you noticed that too? Yeah. I mean, you know, every generation we say right, ugh, you know, this generation today like they've been saying that since when like the jazzy Yeah. Right? And so I don't know.

I don't think any generation is like that much. I mean, we're they're encountering some different issues and the issues that I encountered when I was age, just social issues, and so they're different in that respect.

But I mean, even the way they dress is exactly how we dress in the nineties, I mean, there's still like this nineties vibe is back, so it's very jarring to see students come to my class, dressed the way that I dressed in high school.

Maybe so, but I really don't see a shirt shell necklaces and frosted tips coming back at least not on 1 individual, you know.

Oh, yeah. Maybe maybe Maybe process tips. Yeah. Yeah. We'll see where it goes. But, hey, you know, with any luck, the next reality TV series will be able to find out a more definitive answer to that.

So we'll see. But for the time being, Daniel, I really appreciate this opportunity. This conversation was super cool. I love the ideas you brought up.

A lot of the commonalities you brought up and the perspective that you just started putting together with all these pieces, namely what reality TV can do for us, how it can teach us about ourselves, How it can showcase and sort of take us on this tour I think you said of the social landscape?

Your classes must be full all the time. So I Well, they're about reality TV. So yeah. Well, good. Because I'd be shocked if they weren't. I think you got such a cool perspective and your platform obviously suits you very well.

So thank you for your time. Thank you for putting all of these products out to the world and and sort of servicing with your message. Super cool, I guess, in short. So thank you.

So much for having me on. It was fun. Yeah. Definitely. I gotta tell you though real quick before we wrap up. Wasn't a hundred percent sure where this conversation was gonna go when we started because there were so many things.

Either. Yeah. And it it worked. I liked it. It was good. Yeah. I think it worked. So, yeah, again, I appreciate it. Thank you so much for giving us some time to talk and let us listen to all of these things.

If people wanna reach out to you directly though, to get in touch with you, to find your books, any material, or maybe even other podcasts, things that you've been on. How do people do that?

Yeah. And they can go to my website which is WWW dot danielle lindemann dot com. Wytham is LINDEMANN2 n's, no r. And so all of my contact info and my press and stuff there. And so yeah. It's a 1 stop shop. That makes it easy.

For everybody listening, that will be Hyper linked in the show notes for this conversation. So depending on your platform, click see more, click show more. And once the description drops down, That's where you'll find the link.

So you guys will be able to get out to all of Danielle's material and through our website. So again, to close this out, Danielle, thank you very much for this opportunity, I appreciate it a lot.

So much for having me. You're welcome. And to everybody listening, thank you for tuning in, and listening to our Maycor values of unity honor and mental toughness. I appreciate this opportunity.

I'd also like to thank all things considered. Commuter couples, Dominatrixes, reality TV, all these sitcoms we talked about. And Morgan Freeman, if you ever listen to this, thank you for your inspiration as well.

That was super cool. But I also have to thank our show partners, Keystone Farmers Market, Hoffen Clucker Farms, and obviously Buzzproud for your distribution.

Both if you're interested in joining our conversation or you wanna discover our other interviews, check out transacting value podcast dot com.

And follow along on social media, we continue to stream new interviews every Monday at 9AM Eastern Standard Time on all your favorite podcasting platforms. Until next time. That was transacting value.