The Wild Dance of Feral Grace with Chloe De Sousa

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Become a Global Ambassador for Self-Worth. Text us your feedback! Dance movement psychotherapist and relationship coach Chloe De Sousa takes us on a journey through the landscape of embodied healing, revealing how our physical selves hold onto grief, trauma, and joy—and how movement can help us process what we've been carrying. Drawing from her personal experiences of childhood attachment wounds and adult heartbreak, Chloe illuminates the power of meditative dance practices like Five Rhythms ...

Become a Global Ambassador for Self-Worth. Text us your feedback!

Dance movement psychotherapist and relationship coach Chloe De Sousa takes us on a journey through the landscape of embodied healing, revealing how our physical selves hold onto grief, trauma, and joy—and how movement can help us process what we've been carrying. Drawing from her personal experiences of childhood attachment wounds and adult heartbreak, Chloe illuminates the power of meditative dance practices like Five Rhythms to access different emotional states. Unlike performance dance, these practices create a container for authentic expression without judgment or audience, allowing us to find congruence between our movements and emotions.

(13:58) https://porthouse.kw.com/

(37:51) https://www.transactingvaluepodcast.com/a-doctors-journey-through-ptsd-with-saloni-surah/

Ecstasy & Bliss are your birthright, visit https://feralgrace.net/ to learn more about Chloe and feral grace.

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An SDYT Media Production I Deviate from the Norm

00:00 - Introduction to Transacting Value

00:49 - Chaos and Self-Expression

01:14 - Meet Chloe D'Souza

02:23 - Dance and Body-Based Healing

10:59 - The Hindsight Window and Heartbreak

29:31 - Embodied Expression and Release

39:22 - Values and Developing Character

45:01 - Feral Grace and Instigating Self-Worth

WEBVTT

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The views expressed in this podcast are solely those of the podcast host and guest and do not necessarily represent those of our distribution partners, supporting business relationships or supported audience.

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Welcome to Transacting Value, where we talk about practical applications for instigating self-worth when dealing with each other and even within ourselves, where we foster a podcast listening experience that lets you hear the power of a value system for managing burnout, establishing boundaries, fostering community and finding identity.

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My name is Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and we are redefining sovereignty of character.

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This is why values still hold value.

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This is Transacting Value.

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Chaos is the release that lots of us are looking for.

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I'm not a drinker and I'm not down on drinkers, but I don't need to drink when I've got chaos in my life that I can dance through.

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But I own Transacting Value.

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What happens when we deploy, when we leave for long periods of time?

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More specifically, what happens to our kids and then as kids?

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How might we interpret those interactions?

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What does it do for our self-expression and, ultimately, what can it do for our self-worth?

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Today we're talking to dance movement psychotherapist and relationship and intimacy coach, Chloe D'Souza.

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All about what it looked like for her and some suggestions, recommendations and insights that she's gotten along the way to fix everything.

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I'm Josh Porthouse, I'm your host and from SDYT Media.

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This is Transacting Value, Chloe, how are you doing?

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I'm doing good.

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It's nighttime, my time, but that's okay.

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The house is cool.

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Yeah, I mean so you've had wait, you're what five hours ahead of East?

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Coast.

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Yeah, yeah, okay, all right, well, so let's just start there, then I think it may eventually have come out, probably with your accent or something, for anybody listening to the audio version of this, but let's just take the first couple of minutes then and set the stage, because there's a lot of stuff in that intro to unpack, especially in 45 minutes.

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So maybe for the sake of efficiency and a little bit of resonance.

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Who are you?

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Where are you from?

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What sort of things are shaping your perspective on life as it applies to all of these?

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things'm.

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Like you said, I'm a relationship and intimacy coach.

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My background really studies the body for a very long time.

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So there you had my dance movement psychotherapy in there.

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I'm also an ecstatic dance teacher five rhythms.

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So I've looked for a long time on what our bodies hold.

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So I've looked for a long time on what our bodies hold, the effect that that has on us and also what we can release along the way.

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So the further I've got into my career, the more I go into nervous system work.

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So, if you like, any event that takes place you know, good or bad, whatever you want to whatever.

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These days I would just say emotional, Unless you've had a great amount of time within that moment to realize what it means to you and and what what you're taking away from it.

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Most of us have got incomplete events in us, um, and I for myself, the more I've traveled through life, I try and catch up on the events as they go along, but they leave a mark on us.

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So I'm here to help people with, for example, you know, you know when you'd like to behave one way, but you know you pattern in a certain way and it keeps coming out.

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Well, I'm here to help people look at what is under the pattern, Because if you release that little bit, you start to behave a little bit differently and your world could open up, probably to a bit more love that's interesting.

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So what do you mean like anxious behaviors?

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anxious behavior, defensive behaviors, anger, addiction yeah everything really from um attachments obviously in there that's kind of quite a buzzword at the moment, but you know when or even contradictory behavior.

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For example, a client of mine came to me.

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I really want to meet someone you know and I'm like, oh great, fantastic, I can help you with that.

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And then you find in her system that she's.

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She suffered great loss within the first few months of her marriage, which ended with the loss of her husband, so her heart carries a contradiction.

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I really want to meet someone.

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I'm terrified of meeting someone in case I lose them, so so there's two events of there's a there's a conflict of desires, but once you realize you have the capacity to hold your heart through something and say, hey, I, I understand where we need to risk loss, but we're going to do it anyway because we want love more than that, we want to live again, even though we lost him oh, I like that, and you discovered this through dance uh, primarily through my own history was I found dance floors at about the age of 17, 18.

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I found them more consciously, if you like, if that is such a thing at about 21.

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And I started to digest the freeze in my body from my own childhood.

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So I had very damaged attachment.

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As a kid I didn't really know which way was up.

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There wasn't a lot of emotional literacy going on for me and when I started to move I realized that there was pain, there was grief, there was, there was bliss, that there was anger, and when I let my body express it on a dance floor I wasn't hurting anyone, so I felt free to really move.

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When you get that kind of alignment happening, there's a massive sense of relief in a human being system and and that's when you start to digest events without needing a cerebral cortical narrative even you're just just letting stuff move.

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I went on to study a degree which was cultural anthropology and looking at, like medicine systems around the world, what was working, and spent a lot of that decade traveling and immersing myself in stuff and came to hold five rhythms dance floors to work the magic with other people like provide environments that people could work their stuff out.

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Then I got deeply into coaching because of a, a massive heartbreak in my adult life.

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So you, you've got childhood trauma, you've got adult trauma.

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That holds a different tone and I don't know if you've heard of the hindsight window.

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You might be interested in that, josh.

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Let's say I haven't.

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What is that?

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So for me it's something you can't really fake.

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So my life went into.

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It just kind of imploded.

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One day my marriage broke down.

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It was right, right, you know, a surprise to me, and it was like nothing was left, and I I'm the sort of person that tends to map things because I want to offer them to other people.

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So I gathered a load of tools to to help mend my own heartbreak, and an embodiment was a lens that really helped me out.

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It was like, okay, so this hurts.

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What's the communication?

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And so the hindsight window is the amount of time it takes from an event that at the time seems shocking or hard, to the point that you can get to where, naturally and organically in your life, you realize the blessing or the gift that that event gave you.

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Now you have to choose some meaning on it.

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So for me, I learned how to heal my heart.

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When the event first happened I wasn't like celebratory, I wasn't thinking great.

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I learned how to heal a broken heart.

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Yeah, not now.

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You know, but through hard work and wanting to head towards repair, there was a moment where I saw the grace of what had happened to me.

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I saw almost the amazing opportunity that I had in this lifetime to experience how to mend my own heart.

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It felt incredible and it was a quiet moment of kind of peace and relief and a moment of kind of circle.

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That was a lot, and so when those moments happen and hopefully I provide those moments for people now you can't rush a moment like that, but it's amazing because, instead of being in the victim role, which is an important part of the heroine or hero's journey you then have a reason why that you found for yourself or a humanity that that like, oh okay, this has happened to a lot of people, including myself, and and now, what do I want to do with that?

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yeah, but identifying that.

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I guess there's three things I wanted to bring up based on what you just said.

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Identifying that from, I mean essentially like a silent actor in dance, I mean you're not vocalizing anything, unless actually I can't really think of any dancers that are also vocalizing at the same time.

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So, as a silent actor, how you process through that or identify those kinds of triggers.

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But then, as a of self-expression, I think dance pretty much holds its own now over the last couple thousand years.

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But to be able to do that intentionally you know what I mean it's like a speaker up on a stage or in front of a crowd or with a microphone you know stand-up comedy or in any degree of seriousness I think is able to convey that kind of rhetoric and assess it based off an audience's response and then do something with it.

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Right, it's a three piece kind of thing, but as a dancer you're not focused on the audience.

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You're.

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You're present in the moment, but the audience may as well bleed away, right?

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So my first question is how was dance then a way for you to identify or become aware of any of those triggers?

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And then, secondly, how did you use it to grow and respond to whatever it was doing for you first of all, it was a performance dance, which was amazing.

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So it was more of a meditative dance.

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So it was more like there's five different rhythms and they're going to bring out different pieces of you, if you like.

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So there's flowing, staccato, chaos, lyrical and stillness.

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So you put your body in an environment where there is flow and and you start to receive yourself, your, your attention goes inside.

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You put yourself in an environment of staccato, much more angular.

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You've got the out-breath.

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Your attention comes outside, to the world.

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Even that's catalytic enough to bring up something like how scared some people are to assert themselves.

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You start to flex that muscle.

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You're going to uncover why you don't want to flex that muscle of of like being seen, expressing, interacting with another.

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Why am I scared of that?

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It's going to come up.

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Why am I scared to go inside?

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What's what's there?

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Chaos is the release that lots of us are looking for.

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You know, I'm not.

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I'm not a drinker and I'm not down on drinkers, but like I don't need to drink when I've got chaos in my life that I can dance through like it's like, yeah, it's, it's just like you let your body move any which way it wants to move and there's rhythms and music.

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I would play to it to provide that environment for the dancers.

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The recall is like after you've emptied, you know for for anybody, you know, like the the 2, 3 am slot, if everyone's anyone stayed up that late and you get into this zone.

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Lyrical is a bit like that zone and stillness they call it the healing rhythm because when you're that empty, your body is an organism, if you like just wants to bring itself into balance.

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Your body as an organism, if you like, just wants to bring itself into balance.

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So it wasn't performance dance.

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So you're listening all the time to the congruence between your body movement and what you're feeling.

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You're looking for that congruence and when you find it, you know it, because your mind stills which?

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Is an amazing experience.

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Yeah, yeah, I bet it is Now.

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You mentioned something that before we recorded I think is interesting to that point.

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You said it helped you identify or maybe align with your inner child.

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Is that because it's just more playful and self-expressive and not as controlled of an environment?

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Or not as self-controlled maybe of an environment?

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Or how did one bring about the other?

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I think I've always been a little bit wild and I wanted an environment where I was allowed to be that, and dance schools held that space for me Also.

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I was very sad as a child.

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Um, I didn't live with my mom from about the age of six and and there.

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So there was kind of continual grief for me in my childhood.

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So strangely and this is like I want to send you playlists now, josh but strangely like whenever I was dancing and I moved my hands, I ended up crying like it wasn't like literally my grief was in my hands, but maybe my hands could tell the story of my grief.

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maybe it was a bit of an interaction between the two.

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Like you said, we don't exist in a vacuum, um, and then one day it was gone, like I moved my hands and I didn't cry, it was complete, we were done, we moved on.

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Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

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00:14:47.302 --> 00:14:57.326
Like I moved my hands and I didn't cry, it was complete, we were done, we moved on you know there's.

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There's a lot of ways people learn and I'm not necessarily trying to preach to the choir here, but I'm going somewhere with this and so to say that you know, the more senses you can inundate somebody with to a particular point or construct, the more likely they're going to not only remember it but be able to rely on it, interpret it, analyze it, do something constructive or, I guess, destructive with it.

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Right, and it sounds a lot like what you're describing.

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Isn't just maybe that grief cycle where you sort of dwell and stay in the past and think about it, but then you can also feel it and drive some sort of I don't know adrenal response or or some sort of like what's the word?

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Neurotypical response?

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to whatever those emotions are and and you know lymphatically force your body to process them out, is there any relevance to that kind of physiology or physiological response?

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Is that what keeps you around, working with dance and trauma and relationship?

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have you read Bessel van der Kolk?

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the body keeps the score no, okay he was amazing he first started work with I'd really recommend it to anyone who wants to heal themselves and include all of themselves in their healing so he started working with veterans first of all that were were suffering from what was undiagnosed back there as post-traumatic stress.

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Post-traumatic stress wasn't in the medical big books in those days.

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So you had veterans suffering from flashbacks and all sorts of things going on and they weren't happening.

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But for the veterans it was happening.

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Ptsd is such a thing.

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So he started to look at where the nervous system was storing these events and a sense that these events needed to end at the.

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Where the nervous system was storing these events and and a sense that these events needed to end for the person, but also that somehow the body was storing it.

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The body kept the score on those events.

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So he started to look at like, what did the body need to do in order to, to make peace to the body, to know that it was no longer taking place, but also, but also, the digestion was in feeling it so often with my clients, to use a less catalytic example um, what, what?

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You know the, the very colloquial phrase, what we resist persists, right, if, if I'm, if I'm sitting on something like my sexuality or my love or my hate.

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It sits there taking up a lot of space.

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Actually, when I let myself fully, fully express my hate or my love or my sexuality, it just moves where it needs to move.

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I'm no longer scared of it and I'm less likely to suffer from depression because I'm not scared of what I'm feeling.

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It gets expressed, it moves on like I don't hold on to it because that moment's done and I'm I'm on to the next thing but, we, we tend and I see this a lot we, we haven't been taught that the capacity of our human heart is so immense.

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You give the human heart the right conditions and it knows what to do.

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And so to provide spaces with people.

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And people say to me oh, I feel like I can say anything to you, but you kind of can, because I'm not going to shame you.

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Whatever you're feeling is welcome, and all sorts of scenarios have been described to me.

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When you, when you get in an environment where you give a human being that level of listening, they work things out very quickly.

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Because I'm not, because it's not censored for them themselves, inside of themselves and with me as a human being, to find out what the logic is in, in what's going on for them because then it doesn't have to be logical.

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Yeah, exactly, exactly so.

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And there's always that that you know.

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The mind, body, intelligence has such a great logic, but you have to listen from a slightly different place.

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So maybe a slightly catalytic thing going on here.

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I'm interested.

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What went on for you there?

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You kind of leant back and took a breath in.

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Yeah.

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So one woman that I worked with, she was having affairs okay, with married men, so that's a kind of taboo thing to do.

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I don't condone that behavior.

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But if it's a client, I'm not judging that behavior either.

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But we want to get underneath what's going on for that human being and in the end we got it.

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It was like she thinks that if she's in a relationship with a man because of her childhood, they're going to take over, direct and dominate her life.

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So what's the smart thing to do?

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Have a relationship with a man that can't move in, can't dominate your life, because he's already got a wife and so she keeps herself safe.

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So there's a logic in her behavior.

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But once you realize that that's your logic, you can start to think well, I'm perfectly able not to let someone take charge of my life and dominate me and move in if I don't want them to.

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She stops having affairs with married men just like that just like that.

00:20:14.603 --> 00:20:19.096
But you've got to feel it through, but you've got to realize what there was a key there.

00:20:19.096 --> 00:20:34.230
She made, she made what she wasn't letting herself feel conscious, and then, oh well, I can stop doing that then yeah, well, that's the thing.

00:20:34.269 --> 00:20:44.935
Right like the the point that you brought up, I got to thinking the longer you hold on to anything, intentionally or otherwise, it's always going to cause a problem.

00:20:44.935 --> 00:20:50.124
I couldn't think of any situation where the longer you hold on to something, the better it gets.

00:20:50.124 --> 00:20:54.069
Never that's a nice thought.

00:20:54.069 --> 00:20:57.805
Unconsciously, for example, you eat a sandwich.

00:20:57.805 --> 00:21:02.067
You look like somebody that eats a sandwich every now and again enjoyed a good BLT, or whatever.

00:21:02.714 --> 00:21:03.876
And so when you eat a, sandwich.

00:21:04.478 --> 00:21:13.422
If you don't brush your teeth, the longer you hold on to the bacon or whatever in your mouth, it sticks to your teeth, does damage, and that's without you even trying.

00:21:13.422 --> 00:21:27.423
Right Then the amount of, I don't know, let's call it force or pressure, maybe in your grip that you could exert on anything that you would need to, as your muscles fatigue to hold on to something longer.

00:21:27.423 --> 00:21:34.400
Eventually you're going to drop it and it's going to degrade naturally, because you can't hold it forever.

00:21:34.400 --> 00:21:35.865
Whatever it is Right.

00:21:35.865 --> 00:21:40.403
You mentioned a point, the ability.

00:21:40.403 --> 00:21:57.165
I forget how you said it now, but the ability of the human heart, the extent that it can, you know, feel or accommodate loosely, to the point that you made there, I guess I've always thought about it and this is what clicked in my head when you, you said something catalytic Um, well, I hadn't even thought about it.

00:21:57.227 --> 00:22:20.189
Actually, I guess I'd always felt that it's always easier to feel the pessimistic, negative, heartfelt energies, right, depression, anxiety, grief, anxiety, grief, sadness, loneliness, futility, whatever, okay, and that's when, at least for me, I'm more conscious of whatever emotional state I'm in.

00:22:22.519 --> 00:22:33.380
But I don't know that I've experienced, and if I have, I don't know that I've actually registered what was happening, that that everything, at least as I understand science, is an equal and opposite effect.

00:22:33.380 --> 00:22:47.346
And so for the amount of depth that negative energies can have, then the amount of lift positive energies could have, right, the equal and opposite pull or push, I guess of that extreme.

00:22:47.346 --> 00:22:52.999
And yeah, so I never thought about it until you brought that up, that you can't.

00:22:52.999 --> 00:23:03.346
I call these types of people, or even myself, in these types of moments, a time traveler, because obviously I can only go as fast as the earth, right?

00:23:03.346 --> 00:23:22.670
This isn't meant to be an actual science fiction reference, but as an analogy, as a metaphor Physically I'm present, but mentally I'm stuck in the past and I can't figure out how to get back, or I'm so preoccupied with the future that I have no idea what's happening in the present, because mentally I'm not here, even though physically.

00:23:22.690 --> 00:23:34.210
That's where I'm aging right, and I guess it never really occurred to me that eventually you just have to let go and move on and realize or reconcile that it's not in your control.

00:23:34.755 --> 00:23:41.189
In fact, maybe the only thing that's in your control is to control what you're feeling and develop that.

00:23:41.189 --> 00:24:13.204
And so, anyway, all of that is what was going through my head when you were describing those things, describing those things that you know, whatever the trauma is, whatever the experience was, I spent the majority of a 15 year career in in the U S military, uh, away from my son, and so he's 10 now, but I've really only been around him for maybe two years, two and a half years physically, but I think probably close to all 10 of those years, maybe nine and a half years, I don't know that I've really been mentally present when I've been physically around either.

00:24:13.204 --> 00:24:25.788
So, yeah, there's a lot of those sort of dichotomies that you brought up, where, identifying that kind of unity, you sort of have to identify the prism that you're existing in from a few different angles.

00:24:25.788 --> 00:24:30.125
So what is it do you think about?

00:24:30.125 --> 00:24:39.515
Think about, let's say, self-expression in general, because you don't dance like you used to, right, you focus more on coaching, not physical therapy.

00:24:39.575 --> 00:24:47.403
I'm more of a coach these days, although I'm going to launch a dance series this year because I can't stay away okay all right there it is yeah.

00:24:47.403 --> 00:24:50.751
No, you're right yeah yeah so okay, so.

00:24:50.972 --> 00:24:58.095
So what is it about self-expression that worked, that now you're able to recreate for you, since you're not dancing as much?

00:24:59.698 --> 00:24:59.999
yeah.

00:24:59.999 --> 00:25:03.826
So what I'd like to go to is is is a lot of what you said.

00:25:03.826 --> 00:25:24.915
So, first of all, like I love what you said about the depth of people, so point one, pleasure capping is a concept that I love to talk about because, just as we resist the negative emotions, even though we're more conscious of them when they turn up, you're right, when I'm, when I'm unhappy, it's easier to spot.

00:25:24.915 --> 00:25:27.821
I'm unhappy, when I'm happy, I'm just happy.

00:25:28.723 --> 00:26:08.298
But I think there is something in the depths of things that, having got, having got into points of my life where I was very, very like rock bottom, rock bottom, that there is equal a rise, that I can go, I can, I can get very, very blissful as well when the ingredients are right in my life, but I let myself have a wide spectrum of emotion or a depth and a height, and so some of the work is is to look at culturally, where we've been conditioned not to let ourself have joy, that we have guilt around being joyful or we have.

00:26:08.298 --> 00:26:35.005
We have guilt about just spending time with our kids because we're meant to be working, because we've been taught that's more important than our kids, which I would um contest every time, most of the time you know we've got to bring money in but also like, like, how, how to let ourselves go, how to let our minds go, so that when they pick a daisy and hand it to us, that our heart explodes, that we crack.

00:26:36.016 --> 00:26:38.344
Because, there's nothing more innocent than a child.

00:26:38.344 --> 00:26:46.323
I do more coaching these days because I like to do the school run as soon as I had kids.

00:26:46.323 --> 00:26:55.328
It was harder to hold big dance floor spaces because the money I earned there just didn't seem worth what I could do if I was reading a bedtime story.

00:26:55.328 --> 00:27:07.162
But that's a personal, that's my value system and you can see that that's going to be high on my value system because mom left when I was six, so being a mom is really important to me.

00:27:09.414 --> 00:27:11.896
Alrighty, folks sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

00:27:11.916 --> 00:27:35.412
So being a mom is really important to me and you can see that that's going to be high on my value system, because mom left when I was six, so being a mom is really important to me.

00:27:36.885 --> 00:27:38.671
Well, it could have gone the other way.

00:27:38.671 --> 00:27:40.435
Yeah.

00:27:40.435 --> 00:27:56.433
You know, like that could have just been what you accepted as natural and not, I don't know, atypically nurtural, and just said I'm not going to have kids because how would I know if I wouldn't do the same thing, or any of those types of responses, right?

00:27:56.433 --> 00:27:59.327
So yeah, obviously you made peace with that, though.

00:28:00.210 --> 00:28:01.353
Yeah, yeah, I have.

00:28:01.353 --> 00:28:12.450
You only need to look at your parents' upbringing and their parents' upbringing and their parents' upbringing to realize that the pain that was getting handed down.

00:28:12.450 --> 00:28:15.233
Then you think, well, what do I want to do?

00:28:15.233 --> 00:28:17.998
But it does involve questioning.

00:28:17.998 --> 00:28:22.132
I haven't parented the way my parents parented me.

00:28:22.132 --> 00:28:23.818
It's not because they did it wrong, it's.

00:28:23.818 --> 00:28:26.606
It's just that I've questioned what attunement is.

00:28:26.606 --> 00:28:43.137
I've watched my child's face and and and when you, when you can see an emotion come across it and you work out whether or not they need scooping up or whether they need resilience or whatever it is that that personality in that moment needs from you, you start to listen from a different place.

00:28:43.137 --> 00:28:45.574
You're not thinking about what to do.

00:28:45.574 --> 00:28:49.086
You're immediately your body's either moving towards or away from.

00:28:49.086 --> 00:28:56.029
Most of the time with kids is towards, but some kids need a lot of space yeah, it's true.

00:28:56.811 --> 00:29:08.729
So some parents sometimes your diverse kids often need a lot of space yeah, well, that's something interesting too and maybe an entirely different conversation just because of the amount of breadth they could cover.

00:29:08.729 --> 00:29:13.959
But I think it's a matter of maybe interpreting those types of expressions.

00:29:13.959 --> 00:29:17.696
You know we're talking about, not anything specific.

00:29:17.696 --> 00:29:19.345
Let's say autism.

00:29:19.345 --> 00:29:24.938
That's the most popular, I think, topic right now in terms of this neurodiverse category, right?

00:29:24.938 --> 00:29:44.977
So I think it comes down to this weird sort of dichotomy where in your head you're, you're totally right on the mark, processing the most important thing in the world at that point in time, right, and to everybody else watching it or hearing it happen, dude, what are you doing?

00:29:44.977 --> 00:29:47.488
No, that has nothing to do with what's happening right now.

00:29:47.488 --> 00:29:50.432
Totally, totally off the mark, right, totally contrary to that position.

00:29:50.432 --> 00:31:01.790
And so it's such a weird thing where it's almost like a hyper attunement in the present for one person and then a total detachment and disassociation from everybody else's perception when you get to these like, let's say, neurodiverse expressions or expressions of an emotion, right, and then I think, just because naturally we start to want to be in a community or some sort of like-minded safety net, like, I'm not blind, I can see that you're laughing at me, not with me, those types of moments, of course I'm going to get whatever emotions, my default frustrated or angry or you know whatever and then, however it manifests, if I'm unfamiliar with how to deal with it, and maybe I lash out or get physical or whatever you know and and, and maybe that's the tantrum in the department store that we stereotypically hear about, you know, and I think there's a lot in those experiences that we can draw from, because there's a little bit of every normal whatever that is type of humanity in those types of expressions and outbursts and moments.

00:31:01.790 --> 00:31:15.787
Some of us just have more awareness and self-control than others, but I don't think it's really that far off the mark for any one of us and it's sort of reined in or or or qualified through the lens of parenting.

00:31:15.787 --> 00:31:18.109
Uh, I think that.

00:31:18.109 --> 00:31:20.974
I think that's complicated.

00:31:20.974 --> 00:31:59.006
Um, let me say this I think it's complex because there's so many different ways that you could respond, but I think it's very simple in in that once we build some sort of self-awareness or empathy, it'll fix itself one way or another, it'll take care of itself, sort of like you said, the degree of awareness you developed dancing, um, and then some sort of forgiveness or grace for yourself now, then directly translates into empathy and gives other people permission or space or capability, you know, insight into how to do it for themselves, and I mean, that's the.

00:31:59.105 --> 00:32:01.010
That's the goal of parenting, in my opinion.

00:32:01.010 --> 00:32:07.433
You know, I have no idea how rich I'm going to be or how rich he's going to be or whatever you know, or whatever the metric is.

00:32:07.433 --> 00:32:11.554
If he's going to be good, bad, go to jail, be an upright citizen.

00:32:11.554 --> 00:32:25.419
I don't know, I'm not a fortune teller, but at least in my head, for my son, I look at it like if he's able to contend with himself and not ask me for help effectively, then I did good enough.

00:32:25.419 --> 00:32:27.866
That's all I really got to deal with.

00:32:27.866 --> 00:32:28.788
Yeah.

00:32:29.588 --> 00:32:31.671
You know those types of opportunities.

00:32:31.671 --> 00:32:33.452
That's all I really got to deal with.

00:32:33.452 --> 00:32:40.121
Yeah, you know those types of opportunities realizations, maybe when you're raising your kids or helping other people learn to raise themselves.

00:32:40.121 --> 00:32:53.328
I think those are almost always rooted in some kind of a value system, and so this is a segment of the show called Developing Character D-D-D-Developing Character kind of a value system, and so this is a segment of the show called developing character.

00:32:53.328 --> 00:32:59.058
Developing character, and I'm curious, specifically in your case, about your value system.

00:32:59.078 --> 00:33:02.251
And here's why we talked about this a little bit off the air.

00:33:02.251 --> 00:33:22.351
But I think, when it comes to transacting value, maybe as a phrase that it's it's broken down, like we talked about, into these three pieces right, where, on one hand, it's internal and it's cognition and behavior and how we develop our own awareness and introspection.

00:33:22.351 --> 00:33:25.157
I think another piece is how we communicate that.

00:33:25.157 --> 00:33:34.065
And then the third how we interpret other people communicating theirs and what we do about it, how we interpret other people communicating theirs and what we do about it.

00:33:34.065 --> 00:33:40.230
And so, if we spread it out over time, a portion of this has to be natural and a portion of this has to be nurtural.

00:33:40.250 --> 00:33:42.215
So my first question and I'm going to ask you them both.

00:33:42.215 --> 00:33:43.246
You can take it how you want.

00:33:43.246 --> 00:33:52.945
My first question is what were some of the values then that you remember being raised around or brought up on or hearing about as a kid?

00:33:52.945 --> 00:34:02.375
And then now, after your time and experience and life and growing, what then are some of your values now that you actually stand on and try to pass down and carry?

00:34:04.383 --> 00:34:06.807
can I start with a second question please?

00:34:06.807 --> 00:34:17.952
I talk about my value system quite a lot because I think it's really important that everybody knows what's in their value system and it's different for everybody.

00:34:17.952 --> 00:34:38.237
So very close to the top of my value system list is fun, and I think it's because I'm very creative and when I'm having fun I'm at my my most creative, but also that's when my heart is the most open also and also knowing what I find fun.

00:34:38.237 --> 00:34:39.762
So this is fun for me.

00:34:39.762 --> 00:34:43.289
I'm talking to someone I've never met before on the other side of the world.

00:34:43.289 --> 00:34:43.992
We've you.

00:34:43.992 --> 00:34:49.992
You spent the last 20 years doing probably different stuff to me from what I've read about you.

00:34:49.992 --> 00:34:52.778
But this is my version of fun.

00:34:52.778 --> 00:35:07.514
Like I'm exploring, I'm curious and I think when life is allowed to be fun, human beings like to connect, but also there's an abundance present, which means also you could probably make a ton of money out of it.

00:35:10.666 --> 00:35:34.324
But that's not a value that I necessarily pass on to my kids, but I will follow their curiosity yeah and if you can keep like curiosity alive in a human being and not and not kick that out of them, they're likely to follow their own intelligence towards what it is is their groove, which sets them up like if they're in their area of speciality.

00:35:34.324 --> 00:35:38.271
Whatever that is, however quirky that might seem, they're likely to excel.

00:35:38.271 --> 00:35:43.007
So so for me, I I have a very good brain.

00:35:43.007 --> 00:35:56.014
I could have become far more academic than I have done, for example, but what I got really curious about was the human body and nervous systems and emotions and people and how they connect and what.

00:35:56.273 --> 00:36:00.851
Where do I shut down and where do I shut other people down and how does this thing whole work?

00:36:00.851 --> 00:36:05.467
You know, I got curious about that and I haven't stopped being curious about that.

00:36:05.467 --> 00:36:25.518
Maybe that was there right from a young age and maybe it's informed from there being less emotional literacy than I needed as a kid, and maybe maybe there was also as a kid my, my parents definitely my mother particularly was always like slightly thinking outside of the box.

00:36:25.518 --> 00:36:27.786
It was a beautiful, beautiful value.

00:36:27.786 --> 00:36:33.565
She gave me to sort of slightly question what the norm was and whether or not I agreed with it.

00:36:33.565 --> 00:36:40.956
It led me on some good adventures, I guess, and some dead ends as well.

00:36:40.976 --> 00:37:01.998
I bet I bet it inspired a lot of your routines and expression and opportunities as well, though, yeah, yeah, it definitely took me towards music, which has brought me great joy I bet you I mean you made it out of it yeah, I did, I did and and uh.

00:37:02.159 --> 00:37:05.429
So I think you know fun, honesty, curiosity.

00:37:05.429 --> 00:37:16.373
But the older I've got, the more radically honest I've become, because, going back to that point of like when we sit on stuff, we've got to let it go at some point.

00:37:16.373 --> 00:37:22.657
But it's not good for our system to not brush our teeth after the VLT sandwich for too long.

00:37:22.657 --> 00:37:27.791
I've got more radically honest, which is also why I can feel very comfortable.

00:37:27.791 --> 00:37:31.789
The reason why this is fun for me is because I'm not scared of my own honesty.

00:37:31.789 --> 00:37:34.057
I'm not scared of what I might discover in you.

00:37:34.057 --> 00:37:42.226
I'm not scared of what I might discover in me and those hard truths, perhaps, or the places we were taught not to look inside of ourselves.

00:37:42.226 --> 00:37:44.630
What if they hold gold?

00:37:47.096 --> 00:37:49.527
All right, folks, sit tight and we'll be right back on Transacting Value.

00:37:51.815 --> 00:37:55.005
What happens when your dream job turns into a waking nightmare?

00:37:55.005 --> 00:38:14.266
In this gripping episode of Transacting Value, dr Saloni Sarra, once a senior HIV specialist and PhD in medicine, unravels how bullying, gaslighting and even stalking from colleagues shattered her identity, ignited PTSD and almost stole her will to live.

00:38:14.266 --> 00:38:25.246
But here's the shocker After fleeing countries and hiding in shops to escape her stalker, she reclaimed her power, rewired her trauma through EMDR therapy and now helps others do the same.

00:38:25.246 --> 00:38:35.856
Today, dr Seurat is a published author, trauma-informed coach and is helping others reclaim self-worth and rewrite their stories, one empowered belief at a time.

00:38:35.856 --> 00:38:38.170
This episode is more than recovery.

00:38:38.170 --> 00:38:39.474
It's resurrection.

00:38:41.686 --> 00:38:49.204
I'm not scared of what I might discover in me and those hard truths, perhaps, or the places we were taught not to look inside of ourselves.

00:38:49.204 --> 00:38:51.693
What if they hold gold?

00:38:54.510 --> 00:39:31.893
yeah, it's a fun thought yeah, absolutely a lot of that stuff too, though you know, I'm not entirely convinced everything I encountered as a kid, or in my head at least, is traumatic, and I'm not entirely convinced that everything I've put my son through inadvertently, unwittingly, or actually will be traumatic, because it wasn't until, I mean, I'm 37 now and I was probably 35 when I started thinking what did I go through, what did I encounter?

00:39:31.893 --> 00:39:32.192
It didn't even register to me before then.

00:39:32.192 --> 00:39:32.300
I didn't care.

00:39:32.300 --> 00:39:32.775
I started thinking what did I go through, what did I encounter?

00:39:32.775 --> 00:39:35.210
It didn't even register to me before then.

00:39:35.210 --> 00:39:36.614
I didn't care, I didn't need to care.

00:39:36.614 --> 00:39:54.454
And so I think, throughout most of that, it's also in our power to identify what is traumatic and what isn't or was and wasn't, or will be and won't be, what is traumatic and what isn't or was and wasn't, or will be and won't be.

00:39:54.474 --> 00:39:59.480
But you know, there's a, I think, interesting sort of paradigm there.

00:39:59.480 --> 00:40:06.068
You know, it's like a.

00:40:06.068 --> 00:40:10.311
It's a common reference point, or it's a reference point right, where for us to have a conversation we have to have a topic in common, otherwise we're going nowhere.

00:40:10.311 --> 00:40:15.496
It's either just small talk, and even then we're talking about the weather, or donuts or Starbucks or whatever.

00:40:15.496 --> 00:40:33.731
Right, but, but internally, individually, to get to know ourselves, we still have to have a focal point, and so to be able to latch onto anything in the past, I think there had to have been some degree of trauma or event horizon or conflict.

00:40:33.791 --> 00:40:37.992
Otherwise it wouldn't have registered as important for me to look back on right.

00:40:37.992 --> 00:40:38.914
It wouldn't stand out enough.

00:40:38.914 --> 00:40:59.016
So I don't know if thinking that everything was a trauma is always a bad thing, because it's just a bookmark and the only way I think to that reference point, the only way we can identify where we want to go or where we need to go, is if we first identify where we are.

00:40:59.016 --> 00:41:05.273
Even Google Maps does that, and so it can't be that wrong.

00:41:05.273 --> 00:41:09.675
You know, if AI is telling us to do it, I guess we're on the right track.

00:41:09.675 --> 00:41:26.414
As you're thinking through a lot of those experiences, though the honesty, you know, one of the things that you didn't say, that I was expecting you to say, was authenticity and maybe even integrity or some degree of just wholeness.

00:41:27.476 --> 00:41:32.434
Yeah, and you didn't, and so I guess maybe my second to last question here for the sake of time.

00:41:32.434 --> 00:41:34.005
Why not?

00:41:34.005 --> 00:41:38.088
Why don't those things register as highly, do you think?

00:41:40.012 --> 00:41:41.960
I think, because I make them an assumption.

00:41:46.498 --> 00:41:48.282
Oh, okay, all right.

00:41:49.510 --> 00:41:55.400
You know how sometimes we can overlook what we are or even what we're good at.

00:41:55.400 --> 00:42:02.496
Like we just assume yeah, like that has to be, integrity has to be.

00:42:02.496 --> 00:42:08.190
Authenticity has to be.

00:42:08.190 --> 00:42:09.273
Integrity has to be, authenticity has to be.

00:42:09.273 --> 00:42:10.918
I thought I felt quite hard to to hang on to myself at times like my.

00:42:10.918 --> 00:42:23.617
My job can be quite edgy at times, you know just to stand up and talk about some of the things that I talk about, but authenticity, just, I can't be anybody other than who I am, and that changes over time.

00:42:24.639 --> 00:42:26.463
That's true, so it is just sort of implied.

00:42:31.869 --> 00:42:32.492
Yeah, I love what you said about.

00:42:32.492 --> 00:42:35.342
About like the trauma thing, because recently I've been thinking quite a lot about negative bias.

00:42:35.342 --> 00:42:43.233
So the brain automatically heads towards the negative because it's a primal response to try and keep you safe in the future.

00:42:43.233 --> 00:42:45.237
Like, why did I get eaten by the tiger?

00:42:45.237 --> 00:42:49.724
Well, because I was outside the cave, so next time let's stay inside the cave.

00:42:49.724 --> 00:42:59.371
But also like, like what if we could consciously choose also to place our attention on some of the really good events?

00:42:59.371 --> 00:43:13.150
Because one of the reasons why psychotherapy is great but also limiting is it can put us in the victim role as opposed to like choosing like choosing to place our attention on oh my, oh my gosh.

00:43:13.150 --> 00:43:22.423
This happened, this was really amazing and therefore it marked me in such a positive way yeah, well, that's the beauty of dance, right?

00:43:22.443 --> 00:43:32.358
you can play the victim or the heroine, it really doesn't make a difference yeah it's, it's all in how you express it in the moment, I guess and noticing what happens, which role you take.

00:43:33.501 --> 00:43:33.842
Yeah, what's?

00:43:33.842 --> 00:43:34.784
What's the outcome?

00:43:34.784 --> 00:43:44.523
Well, sure, yeah, sometimes you lead, sometimes you follow, I guess yeah, absolutely, and what feels best, and can I allow myself to feel that?

00:43:46.793 --> 00:43:50.561
yeah, permission takes time, but I guess that leads me to my next question.

00:43:50.561 --> 00:44:00.076
You, I guess, come up with this idea and you've called it feral grace, tell us about it, why.

00:44:00.076 --> 00:44:00.396
What's?

00:44:00.396 --> 00:44:04.384
What's the I'm guessing here the relevance, but where'd that come from?

00:44:05.831 --> 00:44:07.434
I do stand for the wild.

00:44:07.434 --> 00:44:30.998
I do stand for the slightly uncensored, for the edgy, for the things that we wanted to say, that we never said, for the risk, for the permission for people to be more of themselves that might have got got squashed, for the feral part of ourselves to let that be in in each and every individual or however it occurs to them.

00:44:30.998 --> 00:44:39.065
Um, and the grace is because also the other side of it, like wild, isn't all over everybody else.

00:44:39.065 --> 00:44:49.378
Wild can be a tiny little motion or a subtle movement, that and that, and, and my heart got broken and there was a grace in that, but it released a lot of wild.

00:44:49.378 --> 00:44:51.242
So here's feral grace.

00:44:51.242 --> 00:44:57.831
You know, she, she kind of got born from this, this heartbreak moment, and she's produced such goodness.

00:44:57.831 --> 00:44:58.871
I'm so proud of her.

00:45:00.132 --> 00:45:00.634
That's cool.

00:45:00.634 --> 00:45:16.039
So for anybody then that wants to get in touch and follow along, or, you know, your your dance program, or maybe become a client or learn more, where do they?

00:45:16.059 --> 00:45:16.201
go.

00:45:16.201 --> 00:45:21.534
My website's the best place to find me and you can write to me and I'll always answer.

00:45:21.534 --> 00:45:27.001
I love chatting, so, wwwferalgracenet, there we go.

00:45:27.001 --> 00:45:28.143
Get in touch.

00:45:29.003 --> 00:45:30.226
Easy, Easy.

00:45:30.226 --> 00:45:38.393
I have one last question for you before we close this out, because you briefly mentioned it earlier, or at least alluded to it.

00:45:38.393 --> 00:46:00.139
You know, at times working with other people and I think even to a certain degree on you know, like podcasting or any sort of social endeavor or industry, I think more difficult line in the sand is not losing sight of yourself in the process or not relying on.

00:46:00.139 --> 00:46:14.019
You know subconsciously assimilating pieces of other people, but staying true to yourself there, and so I'm curious, as you've gone through this over the last few decades now, how have all your experiences actually instigated your own self-worth?

00:46:15.202 --> 00:46:25.742
a main one that instigated my own self-worth was was realizing that if I didn't believe in me, then then it wasn't going to happen, that the repair I needed wasn't going to happen.

00:46:25.742 --> 00:46:27.264
It was a hard moment.

00:46:27.264 --> 00:46:28.597
It wasn't.

00:46:28.597 --> 00:46:40.838
It wasn't a defense moment, it was just like a deep inner knowing of what I knew could be possible from this moment, and if I wasn't going to believe in me, then nobody else would see that that was possible.

00:46:41.954 --> 00:46:42.414
Good for you.

00:46:43.619 --> 00:46:50.492
Yeah else would see that that was possible.

00:46:50.492 --> 00:46:50.992
Good for you, yeah, wow, uh.

00:46:50.992 --> 00:46:55.822
Well, I appreciate you bringing it up, and maybe reconciling is not quite the right word, but I don't know a more appropriate one.

00:46:55.822 --> 00:47:24.710
So, of all the experiences you have had, I'm sorry they happened to you, but I'm glad they happened, period, and I'm glad you were able to come up with a way to use them to your advantage, because, you know, selfishly, on one hand it made this conversation super cool, but on the other hand, you know there's a lot of people that you're working with or have worked with that are benefiting as a result of all of the experiences you've had and learning to grow through that.

00:47:24.710 --> 00:47:33.239
So letting yourself feel those things and allowing yourself to learn from them, I think, is a super, maybe underrated superpower.

00:47:33.239 --> 00:47:35.483
So congratulations.

00:47:36.411 --> 00:47:37.376
Thank you so much.

00:47:38.289 --> 00:47:38.891
Absolutely.

00:47:38.891 --> 00:47:41.476
Yeah Well, you know it's.

00:47:41.476 --> 00:47:46.585
It's the least I can do for anybody who's new to the show.

00:47:46.585 --> 00:48:07.065
You can obviously learn more about this conversation by going to our website transactingvaluepodcastcom and also, depending on the player you're streaming this conversation on, you can click see more or maybe show more, and in the drop down description for this conversation you'll see a link to get to chloe's website, feralgracenet, and get there.

00:48:07.065 --> 00:48:10.998
Even while you're listening or watching to this conversation, you can check her out as well.

00:48:10.998 --> 00:48:20.150
But I appreciate your time, chloe, your insight and obviously staying up a little bit later to have this kind of a conversation.

00:48:20.150 --> 00:48:25.063
So thank you for your time and your insight and your experience.

00:48:25.989 --> 00:48:27.677
Thank you so much, josh, great to meet you.

00:48:28.510 --> 00:48:35.255
Absolutely you as well, and to everybody else who tuned in to watch this conversation or listen to it, depending on where you are and how you're doing it.

00:48:35.255 --> 00:48:44.077
Thank you, guys, for listening to the show, staying with us, and make sure when you're on our homepage, you click on the leave a voicemail button.

00:48:44.077 --> 00:48:50.025